# Worst sabermetric fielder in Cooperstown **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 24, 2014, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sabermetric-fielder-in-cooperstown/693968 "2014-07-24T20:26:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sabermetric-fielder-in-cooperstown/693968/1 "2014-07-24T20:26:33Z")
I know, based on fielding %, Reggie Jackson is the worst defensive HoF. If you use stuff like UzR, is it still Mr. October? ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sabermetric-fielder-in-cooperstown/693968/2 "2014-07-24T20:59:23Z")
I don’t see why not- Reggie played well defensively in all of the World Series games I ever saw him appear in with the Oakland A’s… VERY well in 1973, against the Mets- he did a nice job filling in for Bill North in center, one game, and made one of the greatest throws I’ve ever seen to hold Don Hahn at 2nd base after a sacrifice fly. Overall, he wasn’t a great outfielder, but he never embarrassed himself defensively in the post-season. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sabermetric-fielder-in-cooperstown/693968/3 "2014-07-24T21:05:07Z")
I think you misunderstand astorian. I used Mr. October as a nickname for Jackson. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sabermetric-fielder-in-cooperstown/693968/4 "2014-07-24T21:09:33Z")
I understood perfectly- Reggie was NOT a great outfielder, but he never embarrassed himself in the post-season, so why WOULDN’T he still be “Mr. October”? He was an awesome slugger. That hasn’t changed a whit. But he was NEVER regarded as an elite defender. He NEVER won a Gold Glove. So, it’s not as if UZR is telling us we never knew before. UZR may eventually change people’s minds about, oh, Derek Jeter or Roberto Alomar… but there’s no reason anyone should change his opinion of Reggie. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sabermetric-fielder-in-cooperstown/693968/5 "2014-07-24T21:12:59Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > I understood perfectly- Reggie was NOT a great outfielder, but he never embarrassed himself in the post-season, so why WOULDN’T he still be “Mr. October”? That wasn’t the question - in that sentence **etv78** says “it,” not “he.” He’s saying Jackson is the worst in the Hall based on fielding percentage and asking if Reggie would still be the worst fielder in the Hall if you used more advanced measurements. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sabermetric-fielder-in-cooperstown/693968/6 "2014-07-24T21:32:59Z")
Thanks Marley. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sabermetric-fielder-in-cooperstown/693968/7 "2014-07-24T21:37:59Z")
Well, if you put any stock in the stat of Defensive War, Reggie Jackson’s career Defensive War was negative 0.5. Not stellar, but ii means he was about as good as any ordinary replacement would have been. That makes him only a SLIGHTLY worse than average defensive player, not an embarrassment. There HAVE to be numerous Hall of Famers with defensive WAR much worse than that. I’ll post some as soon as I find them. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sabermetric-fielder-in-cooperstown/693968/8 "2014-07-24T21:46:38Z")
Among outfielders in the Hall of Fame, the following guys have worse career defensive WAR than Reggie Jac kson (I expect there are others): Hack Wilson -3.2 Ralph Kiner -4.2 Dave Winfield -9.2 ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sabermetric-fielder-in-cooperstown/693968/9 "2014-07-24T21:49:19Z")
Isn’t it Dave Winfield, with something like nearly negative 100 in TZ? Edit, tablet is a bit slow, but I found different career numbers than what ast posted. Winfield was still on the bottom, but he had Frank Thomas, Willlie McCovey, and Stargell for company. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sabermetric-fielder-in-cooperstown/693968/10 "2014-07-24T21:59:48Z")
IF Gary Sheffield ever makes it to the Hall of Fame (iffy), he’ll have the worst defensive numbers ever. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sabermetric-fielder-in-cooperstown/693968/11 "2014-07-24T22:00:50Z")
Harmon Killebrew has a very bad dWAR, but he played first and thrd base as well as the outfield. IF he’d been a career left fielder, he’d definitely have a much worse dWAR than Reggie. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sabermetric-fielder-in-cooperstown/693968/12 "2014-07-24T22:01:07Z")
Harmon Killebrew has around neg 79, TZ; McCovey’s about -78, Stargell’s in the low -70s. Still dwarfed by Winfield’s -98 or so TZ. Frank Thomas, playing DH as much as he did, shouldn’t enter into the discussion, despite his truly abysmal defensive worth according to WAR, etc… Edit, Holy S$#÷!, ast, you weren’t kidding about Sheff. I count about -180 in TZ for him. Gah… ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sabermetric-fielder-in-cooperstown/693968/13 "2014-07-24T22:06:09Z")
Thanks guys. For some reason b-r doesn’t do overall dWar. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sabermetric-fielder-in-cooperstown/693968/14 "2014-07-25T15:14:34Z")
This is a case where the numbers and my own eyeball test don’t reconcile easily. The numbers make Dave Winfield out to be a terrible outfielder. I saw him play a LOT, and I always perceived him as a superb outfielder. At the time, most fans and observers agreed with me. I KNOW Gold Gloves can’t always be taken seriously, but Winfield won a bunch of them- he was fast, always hustled, and had a great arm. Again, I KNOW our perceptions can be horribly wrong. My eyes are as fallible as anyone else’s. I COULD have grossly overestimated how good an outfielder he was. But did anyone else here who saw him play in his prime see him THEN as a lousy defensive player? ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sabermetric-fielder-in-cooperstown/693968/15 "2014-07-25T17:32:08Z")
I saw Winfield during his Yankee years and thought he was an excellent outfielder. His arm was definitely respected by runners thinking about an extra base. What is he penalized for? Range? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sabermetric-fielder-in-cooperstown/693968/16 "2014-07-25T17:37:26Z")
If he sucked, he’d have played a corner, not center, or even DH. Good range, too, IIRC - had a very long stride that made him look slow maybe. I too remember him as one of the better fielders in the game. So here’s another vote for sending a couple of stats back to the kitchen for a reality check. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sabermetric-fielder-in-cooperstown/693968/17 "2014-07-25T18:01:27Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > If he sucked, he’d have played a corner, not center, or even DH. He was a corner outfielder. Baseball Reference says he appeared in 1882 games in right field, 466 in left, and 222 in center, plus eight at 1B and two at 3B, and (if I did my math right) 393 at DH. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sabermetric-fielder-in-cooperstown/693968/18 "2014-07-25T18:16:40Z")
I thought I’d look at another Yankee rightfielder who I saw play a lot, Paul O’Neill, to see how he compared to Winfield. At the time, I regarded O’Neill as an average outfielder. Looking at dWar, O’Neill was -6.6 over his 17 year career and Winfield was -23.7 for his 22 years. Shit don’t make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sabermetric-fielder-in-cooperstown/693968/19 "2014-07-25T21:58:51Z")
Is Yankee Stadium easier to play outfield in than other parks? I know dWAR has some sort of park-correction factor; maybe they’re overdoing it? But yeah, another data point that perhaps defensive sabermetrics aren’t quite ready yet. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sabermetric-fielder-in-cooperstown/693968/20 "2014-07-26T00:29:08Z")
See, I’ve gotten USED to reading stats that indicate players I once thought were great were merely very good, or vice versa. I’ve gotten USED to reading stats that indicate players I once thought sucked were actually decent, while players I thought were decent actually sucked. But even sabremetricians using advanced defensive stats have rarely told me “A guy you thought was a superb defender sucked” or “A guy you thought sucked was a great defender.” Advanced stats have usually made a difference only at the margins. The numbers have shown that MAYBE Larry Bowa was a little overrated as a glove man, but not that he was awful. Dave Winfield is an exceptional case. I thought he was a great right fielder. If he was really as bad as the numbers suggest… this HAS to be the greatest discrepancy ever between the numbers and my lying eyes. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sabermetric-fielder-in-cooperstown/693968.md?page=2)