# Worst sincere suggestions you've received. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 22, 2011, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sincere-suggestions-youve-received/590028 "2011-07-22T21:13:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sincere-suggestions-youve-received/590028/141 "2011-07-29T13:51:59Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > Church group activities still often involve religious references and religious training, even if they are not officially “Sunday school.” Therefore, if **LavenderBlue** is raising her children in the Jewish tradition, it’s utterly clueless for person in the above situation to continue to insist that a Jewish parent should be comfortable with their child participating in Christian activities. I stand corrected ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sincere-suggestions-youve-received/590028/142 "2011-07-29T13:54:21Z")
> [@Namkcalb](#): > > I really don’t see how she made a bad suggestion. > > She suggested a fun activity, you expressed reservations and she told you shouldn’t be worried about them being too dogmatic. She could have used better words, but it doesn’t sound to bad, it’s not like she invited LavenderJnr to sunday school. A non-denominational church is still a church, and presumably Christian. A Jewish child in such an environment will inevitably receive the message that she is “wrong” and needs to be a Christian. There _will_ be pressure to convert, attend religious functions, and so on. Quite frequently, Jews are also given the message that even if they DO convert they’re second class Christians: “converted Jews” rather than just _Christian_, like everyone else. It doesn’t matter that in a non-denominational church such messages will be subtle and/or politely worded, that’s the still the message that will be given. Trust me, I speak from experience on this. It’s a _terrible_ suggestion. Either send the kid someone Jewish run or completely secular, don’t send her someplace where, no matter what, she will _always_ be an outsider and, even if she’s does convert, never accepted as fully and completely Christian. ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sincere-suggestions-youve-received/590028/143 "2011-07-29T14:40:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [Moderator Note]Take the pet hijack elsewhere.[/Moderator Note] > [@ThelmaLou](#): > > This has nothing to do with the person’s feelings about their pet. NOTHING. > > In ALL circumstances, the comment\* was inappropriate. > > Saying to ANYONE who has experienced the death of a loved one “I know what you’re going through” is not a good idea. Even if you lost the exact same loved one. Even if you’re the sibling and the two of you lost the same parent. YOUR relationship with the deceased was/is not like anyone else’s with anyone else. Even if you think it is/was. You really do NOT know exactly what they’re going through. Do yourself and them a favor. Just. Don’t. Go. There. You’ll be glad you didn’t. > > All you need to say is, “I’m so sorry.” Period. That comment is like the Little Black Dress- always appropriate. You don’t even have to clarify and say WHAT you’re sorry about… it could be your friend’s grief, his/her loss, the death itself. Just say, “I’m so sorry,” and let the other person say whatever they say. Then say, “I’m so sorry” again. It always works. > > ThelmaLou, > Widow > > \*The comment was that X knew what Y was going through with the loss of Y’s grandfather because X’s dog had died. > [@Malthus](#): > > It may be subjectively the same to that person, but the implied comparison is tone-deaf at best. > > I may, subjectively, love my mint condition Star Wars action figure more than any human, but if someone was grieving about the loss of their child or parent, it would be a bad idea to say “I know just how you feel. I once had a mint condition Star Wars action figure in its original packaging, and someone opened it and ruined it - I was inconsolable”. > > Note that the comparison above insensitively analogizes love for a beloved pet with love for a Star Wars action figure in mint condition, which I am certain pet owners would find offensive - that’s not a flaw in the argument, it is a feature. Not all subjective emotional attachments are objectively of the same _type_, and when communicating to others (particularly grieving people) it is necessary to remember this … 😉 I guess ya’ll didn’t actually read the whole thread… (Odd, considering how many posts **ThelmaLou** replied to in rapid succession.) ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sincere-suggestions-youve-received/590028/144 "2011-07-29T14:43:06Z")
Obviously it wouldn’t make sense for a Jewish child to _join_ any Christian church. But attend a church-organized swim party? It really depends on what the parents are comfortable with, but it’s not inherently out of the question. I was raised completely non-religious. I lived in an immigrant community, and various religions were a big part of a lot of our friend’s lives. In some communities, churches are a major way that social events are organized- try being in a Mexican community without going near a Catholic church. Now and then I’d tag along to a church-organized activity. I’d never go to anything focused on religious instruction or ritual, but I’d do things like the fall carnival or the church skating party now and then when my friends invited me. Yeah, now and then I’d hear a parable or look down awkwardly while people prayed. It never really bugged me- I knew “religion” was something weird that other people did. Indeed, I was kind of glad to gain some insight into this “church” thing my friends did, and I think learning to be polite and comfortable in unfamiliar religious situations has helped me through many future encounters with religious events and places of worship around the world. “Jesus” has never been more threatening to me than “Buddha” or “Krishna” or any of the many, many gods that I do not worship. I think any Jewish kid could be in these same situations without any harm. But then again, I lived in laid back California. It’d obviously be different if I were in an aggressively evangelical area. ---
**Author:** ![salinqmind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@salinqmind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/salinqmind)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sincere-suggestions-youve-received/590028/145 "2011-07-29T15:02:12Z")
When I was 12 or 13 I was invited to some kind of family-fun doing at my mother’s church (a different religion altogether from the one I was supposedly being instructed in). I was mortified to see some kids from my school whose families were in that church, I was afraid they would say something mean, like “what are YOU doing here, you don’t belong here!” What a thing to worry about! Like THEY cared if I was of another religion - we weren’t there for religious reasons. There was no indoctrination whatsoever by anyone, it was a social occasion. Though I think a prayer and blessing was said at the end. So? I didn’t go home converted and wanting to sign up with that church in any way, shape or form. ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sincere-suggestions-youve-received/590028/146 "2011-07-29T15:02:31Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I was raised completely non-religious.. I think this is the difference - Lavender Junior is not being raised non-religious, he’s being raised Jewish. I expect that hearing parables or listening to Christian prayers isn’t going to contribute to his education as a Jew much at all, and if anything could actually confuse the issue. While it’s great to be inclusive and love all religions as your own, and be accepting of differences, etc. inviting a practicing Jew to a Christian activity seems horribly misguided. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sincere-suggestions-youve-received/590028/147 "2011-07-29T15:22:20Z")
> [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > I guess ya’ll didn’t actually read the whole thread… > > (Odd, considering how many posts **ThelmaLou** replied to in rapid succession.) I guess ya’ll is now a mod. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sincere-suggestions-youve-received/590028/148 "2011-07-29T15:33:17Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I guess ya’ll is now a mod. 😛 No, I just find the pet hijack annoying and wish people would pay more attention to directives from actual mods. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sincere-suggestions-youve-received/590028/149 "2011-07-29T15:36:10Z")
In Grade 12, my high school guidance counselor suggested that I should get a degree in agriculture since I was good at math and then I could become an agricultural statistician. He should have suggested getting a degree in guidance conselling so that I could spend all day making bizarre and useless suggestions. ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sincere-suggestions-youve-received/590028/150 "2011-07-29T15:38:20Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > In Grade 12, my high school guidance counselor suggested that I should get a degree in agriculture since I was good at math and then I could become an agricultural statistician. ?😕😕😕? Did you live on a farm? ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sincere-suggestions-youve-received/590028/151 "2011-07-29T15:47:56Z")
It’s funny how it’s always members of a majority religion that think it’s no big deal to send your kid to their school, or their camp, or whatever. Not all of them, but it’s always them. It’s no big deal to send your kid to Christian camp! Except that your own religion and culture is already drowning in a sea of Christianity, and even the best and most liberal of parents often want _some_ of their culture passed on to the kids. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sincere-suggestions-youve-received/590028/152 "2011-07-29T15:51:01Z")
So would it be inappropriate for a Jewish child to invite a Christian friend on a synagogue-sponsored hayride? Could I invite a Jewish friend to share lunch at the fundraiser for lunch at the Thai temple? I seem to recall being invited to semi-public events at synagogues. Was that wrong? Do Jewish people go to great pains not to expose anyone to their religion, lest they get confused? What is so impossible about teaching a kid “this is what they believe, and this is what we believe?” After the age of eight or so, a kid should be able to make sense of that, and I don’t think hearing a parable is going to cause harm to their Jewish identity any more than watching people celebrate Holi would cause a Christian child to get all mixed up. Different religions do, in fact, exist. At some point you have to make sense of that without your head exploding. What are the levels here? Presumably I could invite Jewish kids to a Christian wedding. Would my Christmas party be okay? Does it matter if it is entirely secular, cultural Christian (religious songs, but no real religious effort) or what? Is it bad form to say grace when my Jewish friends are over? Should I turn my statue of Ganesh around? Anyway, pushing the issue with someone who has made their position clear is obviously not appropriate. But what I saw was an initial suggestion and a clarification, nothing pushy about it. She wanted to invite you to a social event that she didn’t think was particularly religious (which is what I imagine is what she meant by “non-denominational.”). She has no way of knowing that any religion is too much religion. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sincere-suggestions-youve-received/590028/153 "2011-07-29T15:55:41Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > I do get that these statements don’t speak of enormous confidence that you can make it on your own, and that stings a bit. You may see this as “planning for failure,” but the other extreme isn’t appealing either. I knew that once I left home, I was NOT welcome to come back. When renting my first apartment in another city, I phoned them and asked if I could borrow $50 for the utility deposit, and they said, “You’re on your own.” And if I had gotten pregnant while still living at home, I was 100% certain I would have found my things out on the curb and the locks changed. Not kidding. > > It seems to me one could choose to see this as them providing a safety net and promising to accept you even if you made some mistakes, but then I don’t know what kind of inflection accompanied these statements. Still, knowing that “failure” wouldn’t be a catastrophe CAN help with the anxiety of going out on that independent limb. I envy you knowing that the door to home was open. > > All I know is one time my then-husband and I had moved out of state for a while (we were early 20’s) and came back to the hometown to re-settle there. We stayed with my parents where they lived alone in their four-bedroom, two-story house, and after about a week, my father said it was time for us to move out. So we did. And I didn’t look back. I am so sorry that you had this type of relationship =( I could move back into my mom’s house for as long as I wanted or needed to, and if mrAru and I were wanting to move back to the area, we have a bedroom already set up at mom’s that we could stay in until we managed to find a house and closed the deal. [actually we have our own assigned bedroom, not a guestroom. It has our clothes, toiletries, spare desktop … we actually decorated it to suit ourselves.It isn’t the one I had when I lived there, my brother and I swapped rooms so he would have the larger room since he actually lives there with her to make sure that she doesn’t have to go into a home until it is absolutely necessary.] ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sincere-suggestions-youve-received/590028/154 "2011-07-29T16:07:08Z")
It’s not inappropriate to make the invitation…but once you gather the other person’s opinion: > [@](#): > > My daughter’s babysitter’s mom asked if my little girl would be interested in coming along on trips with her church groups. When I told her we were Jewish and said no thanks she said, “But it’s a non-denominational church. She’ll be very happy there.” It’s time to stop. She said no thanks because she was Jewish, drop it. And I beg to differ that hearing not one parable, but zillions, won’t have some affect on one’s religious identity. And yes, I would be much more OK with my kid going to, say, a Jewish event, or a Buddhist event or really anything but Christian. This is not anti-Christian, really, it’s anti majority religion. In this country they are going to be saturated in Christianity all their lives. I was saturated in Christianity from a very early childhood, with first communions, and comments about how their god was the best, and how we were wrong and misguided. And that is what happens, even by well-meaning, kind people. I’d rather limit their exposure to that as much as I can when they are young. Personally, I think lots of Christian kids could benefit from going to some other religions’ activities - but honestly I see Christian parents monitoring their kids as much if not more. That’s OK, but the reverse is not OK? ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sincere-suggestions-youve-received/590028/155 "2011-07-29T16:08:13Z")
> [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > I think this is the difference - Lavender Junior is not being raised non-religious, he’s being raised Jewish. I expect that hearing parables or listening to Christian prayers isn’t going to contribute to his education as a Jew much at all, and if anything could actually confuse the issue. > > While it’s great to be inclusive and love all religions as your own, and be accepting of differences, etc. inviting a practicing Jew to a Christian activity seems horribly misguided. Actually I went to all sorts of different religious experiences as a kid, my parents were interested in exposing me to all sorts of stuff. I call myself a first baptist if I am pushed, because that is what they were attending up until I moved out at 16, but they never pushed me into actually joining the church. I can remember being taken to the catholic midnight christmas eve mass for the singing, I was taken to some black evangelical service in Chicago and got to liking gospel music as an art form, was taken by friends to a jewish weekend retreat for kids when I was 7 and I regularly did friday dinner with them [I spent a fair number of weekends at Elizabeth’s house and they kept fairly traditional though not orthodox, I guess they were some form of reformed.] And to give it some framework, Mom met Dad at [Wheaton College](http://www.wheaton.edu/) when she was going for a degree and he was getting some degree thanks to the Army popping him into some sort of program for a degree instead of demobbing him [or whatever it is they do with officers when they don’t need him. Sort of the army version of half pay on the beach until the next war [Korea] comes up.] Mom has a minor in comparative theology. He was there because my father’s side of the family has some sort of connection, I know there is a building named after my Grandfather there.So I would definitely say that I was raised christian though am agnostic, though I consider myself a believer in a diety though I do not know if anybody is totally correct or if everybody is correct. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sincere-suggestions-youve-received/590028/156 "2011-07-29T16:28:59Z")
I’d like to know when I became a part of the “majority religion.” I remember embarassing myself in fourth grade by asking in front of the class what a “prayer” was, didn’t really piece together a coherent story of Jesus until high school, and attended a Christian service for the first (and last) time with my Cameroonian host mother at the age of 26. I’m no more Christian than I am Zororastrian. When I say I was raised without religion, I mean that in the sense that you were raised without fairies. It has never been a part of my life, other than as a completely bizarre thing some other people do. And yes, I don’t know how I did it or if it is a rare thing, but I managed to be raised in America without Christianity being any real factor at all, much less shoved down my throat. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sincere-suggestions-youve-received/590028/157 "2011-07-29T16:29:56Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > … She wanted to invite you to a social event that she didn’t think was particularly religious (which is what I imagine is what she meant by “non-denominational.”). She has no way of knowing that any religion is too much religion. Okay, to continue this little hijack a bit: “non-denominational” _by definition means **Christian** _. It refers to the practice of being generically Christian without the specificities of the various denominations (Catholic, Protestant, Lutheran, etc.) but it most definitely does NOT mean “[not] particularly religious.” The word you’re looking for there is “secular.” Very, very different word. \ **Hogarth** , I think it’s a rule for guidance councelors that they have to throw out bizarre career suggestions to students. In fact, it’s possible that it’s a quiet drinking game they play among themselves… **Even Sven** , it’s called the Bible Belt for a reason. YMMV according to geography. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sincere-suggestions-youve-received/590028/158 "2011-07-29T16:32:30Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I’d like to know when I became a part of the “majority religion.” I remember embarassing myself in fourth grade by asking in front of the class what a “prayer” was, didn’t really piece together a coherent story of Jesus until high school, and attended a Christian service for the first (and last) time with my Cameroonian host mother at the age of 26. I’m no more Christian than I am Zororastrian. > > When I say I was raised without religion, I mean that in the sense that you were raised without fairies. It has never been a part of my life, other than as a completely bizarre thing some other people do. And yes, I don’t know how I did it or if it is a rare thing, but I managed to be raised in America without Christianity being any real factor at all, much less shoved down my throat. Oh. You are taking it personally. I was referring to the woman who invited the Jewish kid over and couldn’t understand why not. Non-denominational does mean Christian 99% of the time. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sincere-suggestions-youve-received/590028/159 "2011-07-29T17:11:31Z")
Yeah, I’ll agree that “non-denominational” means “generic Christian.” Definitely does not mean “non-religious.” ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sincere-suggestions-youve-received/590028/160 "2011-07-29T17:30:00Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > So would it be inappropriate for a Jewish child to invite a Christian friend on a synagogue-sponsored hayride? Could I invite a Jewish friend to share lunch at the fundraiser for lunch at the Thai temple? I seem to recall being invited to semi-public events at synagogues. Was that wrong? Do Jewish people go to great pains not to expose anyone to their religion, lest they get confused? > > What is so impossible about teaching a kid “this is what they believe, and this is what we believe?” After the age of eight or so, a kid should be able to make sense of that, and I don’t think hearing a parable is going to cause harm to their Jewish identity any more than watching people celebrate Holi would cause a Christian child to get all mixed up. Different religions do, in fact, exist. At some point you have to make sense of that without your head exploding. > > What are the levels here? Presumably I could invite Jewish kids to a Christian wedding. Would my Christmas party be okay? Does it matter if it is entirely secular, cultural Christian (religious songs, but no real religious effort) or what? Is it bad form to say grace when my Jewish friends are over? Should I turn my statue of Ganesh around? > > Anyway, pushing the issue with someone who has made their position clear is obviously not appropriate. But what I saw was an initial suggestion and a clarification, nothing pushy about it. She wanted to invite you to a social event that she didn’t think was particularly religious (which is what I imagine is what she meant by “non-denominational.”). She has no way of knowing that any religion is too much religion. I grew up around Jews and even have a few relatives among them. The Jewish position on proselytism is completely different from the Christian. Jews don’t try to convert everyone to their faith. Spreading the faith is a central tenet of Christianity. Whether this is done politely or not is the difference between decent people and fanatical creeps. The person doing the original asking should have known that any religion other than the one the child belonged to was inappropriate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sincere-suggestions-youve-received/590028.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-sincere-suggestions-youve-received/590028.md?page=9)