# Would A Conservative and/or Trump Supporter Rationally Explain This? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 30, 2020, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-conservative-and-or-trump-supporter-rationally-explain-this/850702 "2020-03-30T21:26:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2020, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-conservative-and-or-trump-supporter-rationally-explain-this/850702/201 "2020-04-04T07:45:28Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > šŸ˜• No response? The suggestion was made that the reputation that Trump supporters are uninformed bigots is undeserved; that they are aware of facts and competent to form opinions; that they are not simply gulled dolts dripping with ignorance. I gave Trump supporters a chance to demonstrate that claim. > > If \*\* Mr. Spanners\*\* cannot answer, how about the other Trump supporters in the thread? @ **Shannon of** ā€” Would you be kind enough to answer these simple yes/no questions? Just saw this, even though I coincidentally answered your questions a few minutes after you made this post. Were you really expecting me to answer you in the middle of the night? Youā€™re certainly not dissuading me from the idea that the left is, shall we say, emotionally over-reactive when it comes to Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Shannon\_of](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Shannon\_of](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shannon_of)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2020, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-conservative-and-or-trump-supporter-rationally-explain-this/850702/202 "2020-04-04T08:30:38Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Iā€™m neither Republican nor Democrat. Iā€™d strongly consider voting for a Republican other than Trump if there were any other GOP candidates. I have many friends and relatives who are die-hard Trump supporters. Almost all of them use Fox News as their primary news source. Hereā€™s what theyā€™ve told me about why they support Trump: > > ā€¢ Heā€™s really a good guy; itā€™s just that the MSM has vilified him. > ā€¢ Heā€™s an embarrassment, but I know he wonā€™t cave to Democratic demands. > ā€¢ He tells it like it is. > ā€¢ When liberals criticize Trump, they criticize me because I agree with him on the issues. > > I also have conservative friends who hate Donald Trump and feel that Trump has ruined the GOP. They want their party back. > > **Iā€™d like to offer a little twist on the OP for Trump supporters**. Suppose there were another GOP candidate for president, one who firmly upholds the GOP platforms on all major political/social issues including abortion and the right to bear arms, but who behaves with dignity, isnā€™t sending thin-skinned or self-congratulatory tweets, is well-educated and knowledgeable, chooses excellent advisors and listens to them, and who has integrity. Would you vote for that candidate over Donald Trump in 2020? Well, nelliebly, youā€™re asking if Iā€™d vote for a candidate who talks a great game, sits up straight and uses the proper fork, does not engage in unseemly behavior (especially not in public! Thereā€™s a reason why we have doors, Donald); certainly didnā€™t go to some troglodyte mill like UPennā€“even worse, the Wharton School of Business (nicknamed ā€œDouble Dunceā€ by the real business schools); and, as a man of integrity, would always whisper a kindly ā€œx-y-z!ā€, not pretend to like her cat to get another date, and never bully a cashier about a return policyā€¦hmm, I donā€™t know, I \*really \*like Trumpā€¦ ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2020, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-conservative-and-or-trump-supporter-rationally-explain-this/850702/203 "2020-04-04T12:27:09Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > Just saw this, even though I coincidentally answered your questions a few minutes after you made this post. Were you really expecting me to answer you in the middle of the night? Youā€™re certainly not dissuading me from the idea that the left is, shall we say, emotionally over-reactive when it comes to Trump. Thanks for your answers! I hope other Trump supporters will respond. And sorry if I donā€™t keep track of exactly which shifts SDMB posters ā€œwork.ā€ šŸ™‚ Obviously I disagree with some of your answers(\*), but you _did_ answer! Will other Trump supporters show us as much? (\* - To pick one example, tell us of _any_ pre-Trump Cabinet Secretary as grotesquely unqualified as DeVos, Perry or Carson.) ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2020, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-conservative-and-or-trump-supporter-rationally-explain-this/850702/204 "2020-04-04T13:12:17Z")
> [@Shannon\_of](#): > > I appreciate you, Wrenching Spanners, for your refreshing post. You kinda got it perfectly. Though admittedly a moron who voted for Trump, with little to say in my defense, Iā€™m still distressed by the uncharitable discourse of this thread. The warm fuzzy values of inclusiveness, tolerance, open-mindedness, _etc._, championed by certain people on the Left, strangely vaporize (or ā€œvaporiseā€, I suppose, to Wrenching Spanners) when it comes to me. Evidently, to have tolerance and respect for all human beings, of whatever origin or self-creation, stops short of people who voted for Trump. Perhaps itā€™s thought that people who voted for Trump are less than human. > > It would be a fun exercise to go back through this thread and insert my name after every fearful, hateful, gratuitously generalized opinion about Trump supporters, then stand back and look at how I, as a fellow American person, have been thoroughly insulted, degraded, ostracized, humiliated, judged, and condemned. Where is the inclusivity? Where is the tolerance and respect? > > Anyway, to answer the question that started this thread, I voted for Trump for the following reasons: > > 1. He was the Republican presidential candidate. > 2. I dislike and distrust Hillary Clinton, as well as her platform. > 3. I donā€™t think Trump is a monster, at all. Heā€™s a sinful guy like you and me. Thatā€™s what I think. But what do I know, being an egregiously stupid right-wing voter? > 4. I have several deeply rooted beliefs which, the last time I looked, Iā€™m entitled to as an American, that are being systematically dug up, defamed, and put on trial, on a grand public scale, starting in kindergarten. > 5. It looks like the Democrats keep trying to put people into groups. When did I stop being an individual and become part of a category? It is a chilling thing to consider that Iā€™m condemned because of the box that _you_ put me into in the first place. > > _Moronically Yours_, Shannon of And right-wingers call democrats ā€œsnowflakesā€.:rolleyes: 1. Fair enough. 2. Fair enough. 3. Trump is demonstrably worse than the average ā€œsinful guyā€. You can try and give him a pass, but youā€™re only justifying and normalizing a bigot and a pathological liar who is wholly unfit to run his own business, let alone be POTUS. 4. What are those beliefs? You carefully avoid sharing what they are but play the victim card because they have been challenged since your childhood. Perhaps you know that they are beliefs that are indefensible. 5. Itā€™s human nature to group people based on various criteria, including moral values. Democrats are hardly the first or only group that does this. Stop deflecting and projecting. > [@Shannon\_of](#): > > Well, nelliebly, youā€™re asking if Iā€™d vote for a candidate who talks a great game, sits up straight and uses the proper fork, does not engage in unseemly behavior (especially not in public! Thereā€™s a reason why we have doors, Donald); certainly didnā€™t go to some troglodyte mill like UPennā€“even worse, the Wharton School of Business (nicknamed ā€œDouble Dunceā€ by the real business schools); and, as a man of integrity, would always whisper a kindly ā€œx-y-z!ā€, not pretend to like her cat to get another date, and never bully a cashier about a return policyā€¦hmm, I donā€™t know, I \*really \*like Trumpā€¦ I canā€™t make heads or tails of what this even means. ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2020, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-conservative-and-or-trump-supporter-rationally-explain-this/850702/205 "2020-04-04T13:12:25Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > Wrenching Spanners said ā€œGetting the outright lies out of the way first, of course Trump had a lot of bombast, some of it untruthful.ā€ This is certainly minimizing Trumpā€™s inability to tell the truth about almost anything. Lying about crowd sizes? No big deal. Muslimā€™s dancing in the streets? Pass. ā€œIā€™ll release my taxesā€? Bombast. ā€œWe have the virus under controlā€? No biggie. ā€œI knew this was a pandemic before anyone called it a pandemicā€? Just Trump being Trump. Regardless of his or Republican policies on anything, it is beyond my comprehension how anyone can support such a pathological liar. One cannot believe a single word he says. My greatest fear is that he gets into another war based on complete bullshit. (Although his lying and ineptitude concerning the current crisis may cost more lives than all of our mid-East misadventures combined, heā€™s already calling himself and his polices the best). > > So please, please explain to me how you can ignore all his lies. I mean ā€œbombastā€. I donā€™t know if self-quoting is bad form but Iā€™d still like an answer from Wrenching Spanners or any other Trump supporter. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2020, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-conservative-and-or-trump-supporter-rationally-explain-this/850702/206 "2020-04-04T13:46:44Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > I donā€™t know if self-quoting is bad form but Iā€™d still like an answer from Wrenching Spanners or any other Trump supporter. Iā€™d love to hear the answer as well. But as Shannon Of demonstrated so well, itā€™s likely to be as much maligned lifelong victims of the evil Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2020, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-conservative-and-or-trump-supporter-rationally-explain-this/850702/207 "2020-04-04T14:25:33Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I donā€™t understand this criticism of people who donā€™t support Trump. Things he did in his first year were horrific and unprecedented for a US President, or at least a modern one. The Mueller report laid out how terrible he was as a candidate and President. He was doing things that would have unraveled another president on a regular basis. Just because heā€™s gotten worse, more incompetent, coarser, more petulant, doesnā€™t mean that the earlier criticism was wrong ā€“ it was as bad as it got, from, say, President Wilson forward, until it got worse again. > > If Iā€™m being tortured and someone asks me how bad is the pain, and I give it a ten because I canā€™t imagine any worse pain, and then the torturers come up with something even worse, my previous ten was still valid ā€“ I couldnā€™t imagine worse pain. > > Similarly, I thought his obvious graft, lies, and campaign violations were really awful, worse than anything before. I didnā€™t expect the level of incompetence at the border that would have him separating parents from children and then losing track of the children! I thought that was the worst, but then I didnā€™t expect him to be treasonously fishing for dirt on his political opponents! I thought that was the worst, but then I didnā€™t expect him to respond so badly to the current crisis! Things like this is why I canā€™t take seriously the fanatic anti-Trump contingent: ā€œThings he did in his first year were horrific and unprecedented for a US Presidentā€ G.W. Bush started a war under false pretenses (not the only one he started, but I digress), more than a hundred thousand civilians died. Dead, men, women, children, a war, a MF war based on lies plus all the other bloody ramifications that stemmed from that and further military adventurisms by previous US presidents. But your moral compass is so out of whack you think Trump (who, mind you, hasnā€™t actually started any wars) actions are ā€œuniquely horrificā€. The real cherry on top is that the guy running against him wholeheartedly agreed and enabled that same war, and he is supposed to be better than Trump. What a joke. ---
**Author:** ![chargerrich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chargerrich/32/5399_2.png) [@chargerrich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chargerrich)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2020, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-conservative-and-or-trump-supporter-rationally-explain-this/850702/208 "2020-04-04T15:15:31Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > **Iā€™d like to offer a little twist on the OP for Trump supporters**. Suppose there were another GOP candidate for president, one who firmly upholds the GOP platforms on all major political/social issues including abortion and the right to bear arms, but who behaves with dignity, isnā€™t sending thin-skinned or self-congratulatory tweets, is well-educated and knowledgeable, chooses excellent advisors and listens to them, and who has integrity. Would you vote for that candidate over Donald Trump in 2020? As I have detailed earlier in the thread, I do not hate all GOP values and most certainly do not agree with all Dem ideologies. I think the AOC crowd are only slightly less dangerous than Trump and if I am being completely honest, I hate Trump the person more than anything else. That all said, I think the far right mainstream GOP like Mike Pence would ruin this country, but if Mitt were running against Joe? That would give me pause to consider. Call it the Trump effect, but some moderate Republicans I once thought were bad for our country now seem tame in comparison to the 80 IQ child we have in office now. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2020, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-conservative-and-or-trump-supporter-rationally-explain-this/850702/209 "2020-04-04T15:21:54Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > Things like this is why I canā€™t take seriously the fanatic anti-Trump contingent: > ā€œThings he did in his first year were horrific and unprecedented for a US Presidentā€ > > G.W. Bush started a war under false pretenses (not the only one he started, but I digress), more than a hundred thousand civilians died. Dead, men, women, children, a war, a MF war based on lies plus all the other bloody ramifications that stemmed from that and further military adventurisms by previous US presidents. > But your moral compass is so out of whack you think Trump (who, mind you, hasnā€™t actually started any wars) actions are ā€œuniquely horrificā€. > > The real cherry on top is that the guy running against him wholeheartedly agreed and enabled that same war, and he is supposed to be better than Trump. > > What a joke. Itā€™s telling when you canā€™t defend a position on its merits, raise an immaterial subject that has no bearing whatsoever, attack it to distract and change the subject. Thatā€™s the joke. And itā€™s not funny anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2020, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-conservative-and-or-trump-supporter-rationally-explain-this/850702/210 "2020-04-04T17:11:39Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Most of these are demonstrably false. > The State Department is still there, no seeming difference in effectiveness. > The judicial branch has politicized the judicial branch. Trump has appointed some of the best judges on there. > Journalistic institutions have damaged their own reputations through obvious bias and incompetence. > I have not seen any sign of weak relationships with Canada and Europe. Russia and North Korea are as they have always been. Russia is much weaker now because of low oil prices. > The EPA is still there, pollution and carbon emissions continue to fall. > Profiting off of government service has been normal for living memory. Clinton raised hundreds of millions for her foundation from countries she was negotiating with and nobody batted an eye. > The rule of law is still here. > His opponents have called him a traitor and an enemy of the country. > How do we know that the intelligence agencies have been hurt? The campaign against ISIS was notably better under him than Trump but other than that I canā€™t see any difference. Now that it is the weekend, I can respond. You said: _ **The rule of law is still here.** _ Is it? Really? [Trump administration blocks prosecution of drug dealers.](https://www.propublica.org/article/walmart-was-almost-charged-criminally-over-opioids-trump-appointees-killed-the-indictment) [Trump attacks judges and prosecutors.](https://www.twincities.com/2020/02/18/trump-attacks-stone-prosecutors-and-judge-ignoring-barrs-admonishment/) [Trump administration seeks do-over for convicted cronies.](https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-again-tweets-about-justice-department-after-barr-urges-a-stop-11581692081) [Trump argues he is above the law.](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/14/us/politics/trump-financial-records-hearing.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share) And of course there are the hundreds of subpoenas that Trump is ignoring. These are [working their way through the courts](https://www.rollcall.com/2019/11/14/trumps-fight-against-subpoenas-reaches-supreme-court/) so maybe the rule of law isnā€™t dead here but the Trump administration sure is trying to kill it. And then of course there is this whole fiasco: [Impeachment of Donald J. Trump for Abuse of Power and Obstruction of Justice.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_of_Donald_Trump) And this whole fiasco: [Russian interference and the obstruction of justice.](https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5955118-The-Mueller-Report.html) And then I could go into all the retaliation the Trump administration has done to punish itā€™s perceived enemies; [Comey](https://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/video/pres-trump-s-extended-exclusive-interview-with-lester-holt-at-the-white-house-941854787582), [McCabe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_McCabe), [Atkinson,](https://abcnews.go.com/US/pelosi-democrats-decry-trumps-shameful-firing-inspector-general/story?id=69973679), [Vindman](https://www.nationalreview.com/news/alexander-vindman-fired-from-white-house-after-serving-as-impeachment-witness/), [Sondland](https://www.forbes.com/sites/tomspiggle/2020/02/13/the-legality-of-trumps-firings-of-lt-col-vindman-and-ambassador-sondland/#7f37ef9c7962), the other Vindman, and more I canā€™t even remember. Now it may be that you think this is all OK, but I doubt you would feel that way if these were actions taken by Obama. You were vociferous in your condemnation of the Obama Administration (sometimes with good reason, I admit) so I canā€™t imagine you would suport a Democratic Administration attacking the rule of low like this, but maybe I am wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2020, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-conservative-and-or-trump-supporter-rationally-explain-this/850702/211 "2020-04-04T17:22:18Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Most of these are demonstrably false. > The State Department is still there, no seeming difference in effectiveness. > The judicial branch has politicized the judicial branch. Trump has appointed some of the best judges on there. > Journalistic institutions have damaged their own reputations through obvious bias and incompetence. > I have not seen any sign of weak relationships with Canada and Europe. Russia and North Korea are as they have always been. Russia is much weaker now because of low oil prices. > The EPA is still there, pollution and carbon emissions continue to fall. > Profiting off of government service has been normal for living memory. Clinton raised hundreds of millions for her foundation from countries she was negotiating with and nobody batted an eye. > The rule of law is still here. > His opponents have called him a traitor and an enemy of the country. > How do we know that the intelligence agencies have been hurt? The campaign against ISIS was notably better under him than Trump but other than that I canā€™t see any difference. In response to me saying: _ **He has politicized our judicial branch and used his bully pulpit to instill doubts in its integrity** _ You said: _ **The judicial branch has politicized the judicial branch. Trump has appointed some of the best judges on there.** _ [Oh](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46294734) [come](https://www.npr.org/2016/06/07/481140881/who-is-judge-gonzalo-curiel-the-man-trump-attacked-for-his-mexican-ancestry) [on](https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/his-own-words-presidents-attacks-courts). By the way, I never said anything about the judges he has nominated. Most of them are just fine and perfectly acceptable though I donā€™t agree with much of their ideology. I am talking about Trump using the bully pulpit to instill doubt in the integrity of the judicial branch. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2020, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-conservative-and-or-trump-supporter-rationally-explain-this/850702/212 "2020-04-04T17:41:29Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Most of these are demonstrably false. > The State Department is still there, no seeming difference in effectiveness. > The judicial branch has politicized the judicial branch. Trump has appointed some of the best judges on there. > Journalistic institutions have damaged their own reputations through obvious bias and incompetence. > I have not seen any sign of weak relationships with Canada and Europe. Russia and North Korea are as they have always been. Russia is much weaker now because of low oil prices. > The EPA is still there, pollution and carbon emissions continue to fall. > Profiting off of government service has been normal for living memory. Clinton raised hundreds of millions for her foundation from countries she was negotiating with and nobody batted an eye. > The rule of law is still here. > His opponents have called him a traitor and an enemy of the country. > How do we know that the intelligence agencies have been hurt? The campaign against ISIS was notably better under him than Trump but other than that I canā€™t see any difference. In response to me saying: _ **He has weakened our trust in journalistic institutions and spread conspiracy theories.** _ You said \*\*\*Journalistic institutions have damaged their own reputations through obvious bias and incompetence. * * * With some institutions you are right, but that is not what I am talking about. I am talking about Trump [spreading](https://www.jacksonville.com/reason/fact-check/2016-07-29/story/fact-check-did-ted-cruzs-father-consort-lee-harvey-oswald) [conspiracy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_citizenship_conspiracy_theories) [theories](https://www.snopes.com/news/2015/11/22/donald-trump-cheering-911/). I am talking about Trump saying that the press is lying (lugenpresse) when their is clear footage showing that they are telling the truth (do I really need to link examples?). Again, are you really OK with your government (of whatever party) regularly undermining the integrity of the press? If a journalistic institutions damages itā€™s credibility by being lying, propaganda spreading, pieces of shit, that is one thing (and I agree with you that there are many cases of this on both sides of the political spectrum). If the government actively tries to damage the press that is something else entirely. It bothers me that you are OK with this. Are you going to be OK with this when a Democratic Administration does it? I wonā€™t be and have not been in the limited instances where it has happened. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2020, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-conservative-and-or-trump-supporter-rationally-explain-this/850702/213 "2020-04-04T20:28:39Z")
> [@chargerrich](#): > > As I have detailed earlier in the thread, I do not hate all GOP values and most certainly do not agree with all Dem ideologies. > > I think the AOC crowd are only slightly less dangerous than Trump and if I am being completely honest, I hate Trump the person more than anything else. > ā€¦ Sure the ā€œYoung Turksā€ have some crazy ideas, but if you actually pin one down, usually they will admit that they know the ideas as listed are impractical, they are mostly talking or starting points. ---
**Author:** ![Shannon\_of](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Shannon\_of](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shannon_of)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2020, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-conservative-and-or-trump-supporter-rationally-explain-this/850702/214 "2020-04-05T03:39:10Z")
No, I get you. Heā€™s rough hewn,. I lived in New York in the '80s, and he was The Trump and Mr Showbiz and all that. He was handsome then. And he did amazing work in the hotel industry, in the building industry in general. The idea that he has an IQ of 80, or is stupid in any way, is preposterous. Someone in this thread even said that he is ā€œunfit to run his own business.ā€ What? Thatā€™s like saying Mrs See is unfit to make chocolates, (Californians will get the reference.) I mean, letā€™s be real. He went to the Wharton School of Business at UPenn. He was wildly successful in business and enterprise, worked deals and negotiated with hard-ass unions, international suppliers, mega-contractors, construction crews, primadonna architects, you name it. He made it work, with all kinds and sorts of people, which requires intelligence, understanding, perception, and imagination, and would leave no room for bigotry and racism, not if you want to get things done. You just canā€™t say heā€™s stupid or racist or a bad businessman. The fruits of his life prove the opposite. Iā€™m pretty sure that the Left, or Democrats, or whatever you want to call the filet mignon of ā€œyou guysā€ believe that the MSM are unbiased in their coverage of Donald Trump and have uncovered shocking truths. ā€œWe guysā€ disagree. Which brings me to my next pointā€“you guys have NPR, SNL, Oprah, The Tonight Show, the NYT, the Washington Post, the LA Times, MSNBC, CBS, and all the other broadcast news outlets; you took the helm of public education (which was my reference to kindergartenā€“it was not a personal reference); you own Hollywood, Broadway, TV entertainment in all its array. Seriously, you really canā€™t stand that we haveā€¦Fox News? How is it even possible that such a powerful cadre of opponents wouldnā€™t try to bring Trump down? I truly believe any of his excesses, lies, and mistakes are in keeping with the office he holds. The reason heā€™s so thoroughly hated is primarily because of what he looks like (weird) and how he acts (crazy), and secondarily because heā€™s distastefully old-fashioned: he loves America and wants to protect our interests and make us prosperous, yes, in a money and revenue way, right down to the flyover guy. You know Iā€™m telling the truthā€“if Obama told the same lies, made the same mistakes as Trump (and did, in his own ways), do you think the MSM would have vilified him the way they do Trump? Itā€™s because Obama played ball and his social programming ideals pleasantly aligned with theirs. Trump doesnā€™t scratch their backs and make nice, he yells at them because of their outlandish bias and contempt for him, his programs, and his ideals. Probably the POTUS shouldnā€™t do that, but Iā€™m kind of glad he does. Itā€™s been so long since anyone looked out for us as Americans, as a sovereign people. ---
**Author:** ![Shannon\_of](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Shannon\_of](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shannon_of)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2020, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-conservative-and-or-trump-supporter-rationally-explain-this/850702/215 "2020-04-05T04:56:57Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Iā€™d love to hear the answer as well. But as Shannon Of demonstrated so well, itā€™s likely to be as much maligned lifelong victims of the evil Democrats. It should have read ā€œā€¦much-maligned, lifelongā€¦ā€ Smiley, smiley, smiley! I want to keep hammering home the fact that Republicans, just like Democrats, have both smart AND stupid constituents. That \*that \*is something I have to emphasize is a sad statement about the prejudice that exists among many Democrats, some in my own family (who get self-conscious when weā€™re in her car together, listening to NPRā€“she canā€™t really call her own sister a conservative moronā€¦_or can she?_). You know, in my original post, I was being purposely gentle and sensitive, to amuse myself, and to get my points across, but also to try to steer the conversation toward a more polite course. As a thread it was game at first but, like a party thatā€™s fallen off the fun curve, it was starting to get ugly. Redirecting the course was none of my business, really, and certainly no one asked me to do it. Honestly, in my contrarian heart, I was hoping someone would wheel on me and reply with a vituperative smear of my intelligence and character, in keeping with the tone the thread was taking (which MikeF, was it?, started politely enough, if somewhat provocatively in the last bit of his gambit). Iā€™m kind of sorry that no one took the bait to crush me, what fun it would have been!, but it does shed new light on an old prejudice _I_ confess to: that, as a group, Democrats are incorrigibly mean-spirited and spiteful. Everyone has been really nice to me here, considering Iā€™m a Republican. Maybe it would be possible to have dinner together without one of us leaping across the table with a knife, or even getting agita. ---
**Author:** ![chargerrich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chargerrich/32/5399_2.png) [@chargerrich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chargerrich)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2020, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-conservative-and-or-trump-supporter-rationally-explain-this/850702/216 "2020-04-05T06:09:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure the ā€œYoung Turksā€ have some crazy ideas, but if you actually pin one down, usually they will admit that they know the ideas as listed are impractical, they are mostly talking or starting points. Would they though? That shit that went down at Evergreen College a few years ago? Those ā€œwokeā€ students and their ā€œmicro aggressionsā€ā€¦ that is POTENTIAALY the future core of the democratic party. While I have voted democrat for 2 decades, THAT is what republicans are afraid of and I do not blame them. Maybe I have been listening to Jordan Peterson too much, but IMO that wing of the democratic party WOULD have (and still may) push many moderates to the right if not for the trainwreck of villany and lies that exist in the GOP at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![chargerrich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chargerrich/32/5399_2.png) [@chargerrich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chargerrich)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2020, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-conservative-and-or-trump-supporter-rationally-explain-this/850702/217 "2020-04-05T06:18:33Z")
> [@Shannon\_of](#): > > The idea that he has an IQ of 80, or is stupid in any way, is preposterous. I own and stand by that comment. Just listen to the man talk, his vocabulary is severely limited and (unintentionally) comical, which is certainly appealing to his lower IQ base because he sounds like an everyman (albeit with Daddyā€™s money and no love for those poor supporters). Listen to Reagan, HW Bush, Clinton and Obama (hell even Pence) and tell me that Trump ā€œsoundsā€ intelligent. I understand your oratory skills are not the single definition of intelligence. But I do know that a person who CONSTANTLY reminds me of how smart he is almost EVERYTIME he speaks and at the most bizarre and awkward moments is generally not a smart person. I would place a not insignificant amount of money that he is one of - if not THE - single most unintelligent POTUS (relatively speaking) in our history. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2020, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-conservative-and-or-trump-supporter-rationally-explain-this/850702/218 "2020-04-05T06:21:04Z")
> [@chargerrich](#): > > Would they though? > > That shit that went down at Evergreen College a few years ago? Those ā€œwokeā€ students and their ā€œmicro aggressionsā€ā€¦ that is POTENTIAALY the future core of the democratic party. > > While I have voted democrat for 2 decades, THAT is what republicans are afraid of and I do not blame them. > > Maybe I have been listening to Jordan Peterson too much, but IMO that wing of the democratic party WOULD have (and still may) push many moderates to the right if not for the trainwreck of villany and lies that exist in the GOP at the moment. About the Evergreen College, that was a wonder of a propaganda fear mongering from the right: [https://psmag.com/education/the-real-free-speech-story-at-evergreen-college](https://psmag.com/education/the-real-free-speech-story-at-evergreen-college) > [@](#): > > Yet Weinstein continued to insist that the protesters were mainly concerned with his email. Though Weinstein calls himself a progressive, he went on the rabidly right-wing, anti-immigrant Tucker Carlson Tonight on Fox News shortly after the protests. Carlson claimed that white people had been forced off campus, which was not true. He then played a clip of the protest, framing it to suggest, falsely, that the protest had been a response to Weinsteinā€™s email alone. Weinstein co-signed that version of events, and did not correct Carlson when he said that the core demand of the protesters was that white people leave campusā€”which, again, was completely false. Participation in the Day of Absence was voluntary, and student demands did not include any discussion of forcing students off campus. > [@](#): > > Weinsteinā€™s tweet went out to around 110,000 Twitter followers; Breitbart News also picked up his comments. As a result, Evergreen organizers were once again deluged with hate mail. The RSVP link for the 2018 Day of Absence received over 200 messages from troll accounts with names like ā€œBad Idea,ā€ ā€œAK 47,ā€ and ā€œAdolf Hitler.ā€ The response overwhelmed the website, making it difficult for organizers to notify participants about a change of venue.\* > > Some online trolls even threatened to show up at Evergreen itself. ZoĆ© Samudzi, a speaker at the 2018 Day of Absence and co-author of the forthcoming book As Black as Resistance: Finding the Conditions for Liberation, was contacted by the Carlson show; the producer asked her questions about whether she really wanted to be associated with such an event, apparently trying to provoke a controversial response. In the end, the 2018 Day of Absence proceeded without any violence or confrontation on campus. Samudzi tells me she gave a well-received talk to an engaged audience that, like the student body at Evergreen, was mostly white. > > ā€œI think that thereā€™s a particular cowardice in the university not sponsoring the Day of Absence,ā€ Samudzi says. ā€œI think that weā€™re seeing how a lot of university administration, regardless of how liberal theyā€™re purporting to be, really capitulate to the social and political pressure thatā€™s put on them by the far right. I think that thatā€™s really the big threat to academic free speech.ā€ > > Right-wing media personalities like to present left-wing studentsā€”especially black left-wing studentsā€”as dangerous totalitarians, threatening democracy. But the truth is that students have limited power, and limited ability to make themselves heard. Right-wing media has been eager to amplify Weinstein. In contrast, students at Evergreen have struggled to get their stories out. Weinstein left Evergreen with a generous pay-off, and now has a successful Patreon and enjoys flattering coverage in the New York Times. Students on campus, meanwhile, lost anti-racist programming, and faced far right harassment, without any tangible recompense. > > Despite threats and administrative hostility, these students refused to let the Day of Absence die. Still, that shouldnā€™t obscure the way that Carlson, Weinstein, and others misrepresented the nature of the event, encouraged harassment, and stirred up protest in a nearly successful effort to suppress anti-racism on campus. That seems a whole lot like a curtailment of free speechā€”unless, of course, you have convinced yourself that students donā€™t have anything to say. As for Jordan Peterson, yes, you need a better source of information. > **[Jordan Peterson](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jordan_Peterson)** > > Jordan Bernt "Red Skull" Peterson\[4\] (1962ā€“) is a Canadian (perhaps soon-to-be-former) clinical psychologist, a retired\[5\] University of Toronto psychology professor, and Ultracrepidarian par excellence.\[6\] He has falsely claimed to be both an... ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2020, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-conservative-and-or-trump-supporter-rationally-explain-this/850702/219 "2020-04-05T06:25:22Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > Sometimes low hanging fruit is just asking to be picked. And sometimes low hanging nutty statements are just asking to be ridiculed. Again, that was not why I pointed that out. You were wrong by nutpicking, and calling it ā€œlow hanging fruitā€ is just again a fallacious attempt at making the nutty statements as if all the left and liberals are like that. ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2020, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-conservative-and-or-trump-supporter-rationally-explain-this/850702/220 "2020-04-05T07:16:34Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Tell us of _any_ pre-Trump Cabinet Secretary as grotesquely unqualified as DeVos, Perry or Carson. If you want a direct equivalent of Betsy Devos, go have a look at Obama Secretary of Commerce Penny Pritzker. As for Perry, he was governor of Texas for 15 years and had a political career dating back to 1984. I get the irony that he was selected as Secretary of Energy after calling for the Department of Energy to be abolished, but thereā€™s no question that he had the political experience to be qualified as a cabinet member. Carson was light on political experience, but has a distinguished career as a surgeon and medical director. Just go take a look at the manā€™s awards. Example: ā€œIn 2008, U.S. News & World Report named Carson as one of ā€˜Americaā€™s Best Leadersā€™ā€. [Ben Carson - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Carson#Awards_and_honors) Iā€™m not going to participate in a hijack about Trump cabinet appointments, but this is the kind of irrationality from the left that Iā€™m highlighting. You donā€™t like somebody because theyā€™re associated with Trump and you donā€™t like their politics, and therefore theyā€™re unqualified. Itā€™s just another example of the ā€œus vs themā€ mentality causing both sides to be politically entrenched. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-conservative-and-or-trump-supporter-rationally-explain-this/850702.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-conservative-and-or-trump-supporter-rationally-explain-this/850702.md?page=12)