Is mainstream political discourse in the US as polarised as the posts in this thread? If so, there’s your answer. If a prominent message from the left is that the views of the right are contemptible, then the right is going to be deaf to all messages from the left. So just like the left would prefer the rotting corpse of Hitler over Trump, the right would prefer literally any Republican over a leftist.
That’s why Trump won!!!11
A leftist? Who the fuck said anything about a leftist? We’re talking about a mainstream Democrat. And, your false equivalence is the same as Velocity’s.
Velocity, your list up above is, in my opinion, really not on point. That’s showing hatred for a specific person, Trump, not Republicans in general. Trump has been, again IMO, uniquely bad. His policies are mainstream Republican bad, but his Twitter rants, his treatment of other politicians, his generally toddler-like behavior, his incurious nature, his greed and graft, and his incompetence are uniquely bad for a president. So,your both-sideism is, again IMO, bullshit in this case.
Anyway, I’d love to hear from an actual Trump supporter. I can only think of one who hasn’t been banned at this point, though.
I hope this doesn’t sound like quibbling, but, ignorance, bigotry, fear and resentment are their core tribal values; the cult they have always been.
Just to be clear, I would never waste a vote on someone like Gary Johnson. I am - on most days - a democrat ;).
From an ideology perspective, I was saying I align most with moderate democrats (like Biden) who do not drift off into AOC far/fringe left policies. I do not mind admitting that Gabbard and Yang were the two candidates that I most identified with (knowing full well that they had no real chance in 2020).
I often struggle with the use of the word “centrist” as I am - generally speaking - a democrat, but when i hear the fringe left talk, it always makes me cringe and I hate that the democratic party fracture has created this ultra progressive wing in much the same way that republicans have their ultra conservative, “climate change is a hoax”, “god will fix everything” arms.
Biden would make a good POTUS in my opinion. I think that he is mostly a good man, is definitely the “anti-trump” and would get us moving back in the right direction. The problem (my fear) is his age and in this political climate, going up against Trump in debates he will get slaughtered.
A leftist is simply somebody from the left. I don’t know what sinister meaning you’re trying to imbue the word with. Communist, maybe? Feel free to substitute the word liberal if it will calm you down.
Is it a mainstream Democrat position that “Trump supporters believe in a constructed false reality. They simply believe things that are made-up and imagined.”?
If the liberal vs conservative argument in the US is so inflamed that the above statement is a typical liberal position, then it’s no wonder that US politics is so polarised. I’m sure if you go look, you can find an equally polarising statement about liberals from a conservative leaning message board. But if either or both sides are prominently generating messages that the other side is made up of nothing but irrational dupes, then all messages from whichever side are going to be rejected by the opposite side. The OP is asking a poisoned-well question, but he’s essentially asking why a conservative would back Trump in spite of all his bad acts. The answer is that because the US is so polarised, he’s opposing everyone in the liberal tribe. Trump may have issues, but at least he’s in the conservative tribe. Is this rational? No. But neither is the Trump Derangement Syndrome that seems to have taken over the liberal mindset and is well-evidenced within this thread.
I am much happier that we are nominating the corpse of Joe Biden than the corpse of Charlie Manson.
I don’t know about Biden getting slaughtered. When Trump isn’t reading what is on the teleprompter, he shows his true colors in babbling, non-sensical, incomplete sentences and outright lies. If a moderator were to actually call him on his bullshit, things could get interesting. The thing is, they don’t. They ask the question, let the candidates spew and leave it to the voter to decide. What you end up with is both sides declaring victory even though a critical thinker would see through the smoke. Although I don’t agree with it, I understand the “elections are too important to leave to the voters” mindset.
Regarding Rs and Ds generally - I agree with chargerrich on almost every point in post #7. I was raised in a white (upper?) middle class family and went to a 99% white high school. I rarely encountered minorities and spent a career as a a law enforcement officer. I ought to be a staunch R but I’m not. As a result of life experience, I’ve become very tolerant of people not exactly like me. Live and let live but take some personal responsibility with where you end up in life. I believe most hard core Trumpers see thier way of life under siege. They really don’t care about the country as a whole, despite their chanting of U!S!A!. They care about themselves and anything that could potentially encroach on their beliefs must be fought tooth and nail. They miss that their way of thinking is counter to the very principles upon which this country was founded. People under siege are generally more passionate than those laying siege. Their very existence depends on it while those on the attack have less to lose. Military doctrine commonly holds that there need to be a 3:1 advantage on the part of the “siegers”. Fortunately, our system doesn’t require that but, if Democrats don’t come out and vote, who is to blame as to who sits in the White House or Congress?
I’m not going to address everything on this list. Many of these are real policies but they mostly deal with substance that is not real. I mean, the gradual erosion of Christianity? Yes, this is happening. But Christianity isn’t our state religion, God is not real in any factually demonstrable sense that we all agree upon. In essence they are aggrieved that someone disrespects their invisible friend.
Feminism? Homosexuality? These things are real, but their impact to conservatives is absolutely insubstantial, unless you count their rage over not being able to control the private behavior of others.
Naturalized citizenship is a real thing, but it’s not something Democrats invented, it’s constitutional originalism.
I checked the Democratic Party platform and it didn’t say anything about Trump supporters and their beliefs, so I’d say it’s not.
“Leftist” has a different meaning than somebody on the left-hand side of the spectrum in real life, at least in the US. You’re from the UK, of course – do you think the Democratic Party platform is “leftist”? Is universal healthcare a leftist position in the UK? How about sensible gun regulations? Is that leftist in the UK? Acceptance of the reality of climate change? Are those things that the Tories run against?
I guess this is very off-topic for this thread, so I apologize for the hijack.
OP, any luck getting any actual Trump supporters yet? I think there may be three of them, now that I’ve thought about it a bit more.
Plenty of thoughtful conservatives do not support Trump. Plenty of Republicans grit their teeth and support him because they can manipulate him into doing things they want. The overwhelming majority of Trump supporters are bigots, racists, ignorant, fearful and resentful of having their prejudiced views challenged for years by more progressive views of fellow countrymen. The Trump Derangement Syndrome has affected those on the right as well. It’s turned them into mindless MAGAcultists. Saying both sides are equally deranged is disingenuous and it would behoove you to not equate the two because the motives of the MAGATS are demonstrably dangerous and destructive to American society. What can progressives be credibly accused of forcing the right to do? Being tolerant of gays, minorities and trans people? Forcing everyone to have access to healthcare, clean water, education and a planet worth living on? Seriously. Has your argument ever worked on anyone who didn’t already agree with you?
But Trump actually is a horrible president, he actually does spew lies and conspiracy theories to his supporters and his supporters actually do eat that stuff up. Me pointing this out is not “Trump Derangement Syndrome”, it’s just reality.
I’m a left-winger who didn’t like Obama at all mainly due to the war on terror, and Yemen late in his second term. I think almost every right-wing attack on Obama was moronic, but that didn’t suddenly make me like Obama more. If you ask Democrats who strongly supported Obama why they did, they wouldn’t say because of how negative and accusatory his critics are, they would probably talk about one of his policies that they agreed with. Saying support comes from foaming-at-the-mouth detractors only serves to prove that people actually do eat up Trump’s BS, and instead of actually trying to defend it prefer to lash out at people who call them on it.
There just isn’t an equivalence.
This thread is unfolding like many of the other dozen+ threads we’ve had over the past few years of “Why do Trump supporters support Trump?”
Step 1: “Why do Trump voters support him?”
Step 2: (Someone explains why Trump voters support him)
Step 3: “But that’s ***WRONG ***of them! They SHOULDN’T support him!”
To which my response is - are you looking for a discussion, or a quarrel? Because when people explain why some folks vote for Trump (or support Hitler, or join ISIS, or become Klansmen, or become school shooters, or whatever) and you then lash out at the explanation itself, that’s counterproductive to the discussion.
[SARCASM]Well that solves the OP’s issue then. Everyone in this thread should read the Republican Party platform. They’ll find that it contains measured reasonable ideas, which they may disagree with, but have a rational basis. They can then ignore all the noise about the right (I hope it’s okay for me to use that term.) and conclude that there is no polarisation in US politics, and no basis for them to denounce Republicans or Trump.[/SARCASM]
Trump is an awful person and a inveterate liar. However, what has he done that is verifiable uniquely horrible? He has lied, but every politician lies, he just does it alot more often and alot more brazenly. He has been personally petty and said mean and stupid things on twitter, but that it easy to ignore.
I’m guilty of having asked this question in the past and I’ve resolved not to ask it. I have not resolved to not respond to it.
But you’re absolutely right about there being no justification for supporting Hitler, ISIS, KKK, mass shooters, and Trump&Co. None. People offering justification as those posted here and in other threads like this, should stop doing so. Because it’s an indefensible position to hold.
There’s a difference between explanation and justification. Almost no one in this thread is supporting Trump (and the OP actually did want Trump voters themselves to show up and talk.)
Well at least you supplied an answer to the OP, although I’m not sure that was your intention.
[SARCASM]Right, no Trump Derangement Syndrome in that paragraph at all. Nothing polarising or tribal or insulting to a Trump supporter, turning them away from Democrat arguments.[/SARCASM] Seriously. Has your argument ever worked on anyone who didn’t already agree with you?
As you’ve pointed out, we’ve had these conversations before and actual Trump supporters did respond and offered “explanations”, which were very much distinctions without a difference from “justifications”.
On the SDMB, all three steps are from liberals. And Step 3 only becomes necessary when one of the very few Trump supporters, who doesn’t mind being screamed at and insulted (and being banned if he screams or insults back) actually takes on Step 2, it is invariably followed by Step 3 consisting of “no, that isn’t why - it is bigotry, homophobia, racism, evil, etc.”
The SDMB is 80-90% those who wouldn’t vote for Trump in a million years. And who also wouldn’t vote for Bush, McCain, Romney, Pence, Ryan, or anyone else who ever got the Republican nomination in a million years. Maybe they would be marginally less hyperbolic about it, but they would still never vote for a Republican.
The basic rule is, 40% or so of the American public is stupid because they will automatically vote for anyone with an R after his name. Another 40% are smart because they will automatically vote for anyone with a D after his/her/their name.
Easy-peezy lemon squeezy.
Regards,
Shodan