# Would a mass charge stop the gunman? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 16, 2007, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-mass-charge-stop-the-gunman/404253 "2007-05-16T00:09:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2007, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-mass-charge-stop-the-gunman/404253/21 "2007-05-17T00:15:59Z")
So a gunman walks into class and, using telepathy, I instruct everyone to rush him at the same time. Sounds fine to me. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2007, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-mass-charge-stop-the-gunman/404253/22 "2007-05-17T00:42:38Z")
Personally, I’ve found it hard to concentrate hard enough for telepathy while shitting myself. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2007, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-mass-charge-stop-the-gunman/404253/23 "2007-05-17T09:21:52Z")
[QUOTE=Plan B] But getting back to the OP. Of course it depends on a lot of variables. In many situations, yes it would help…a lot. And I’m pretty sure there are numerous incidents in Israel where this was proven to be true. [/QUOTE] One incident that comes to mind happened a few years ago, when a man with a AK-47 burst into a bat mitzvah party and started firing at random. 3 were killed before the guests counter-attacked with chairs, wine bottles, fists, whatever they had at hand. I think they killed him… eventually. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2007, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-mass-charge-stop-the-gunman/404253/24 "2007-05-17T15:46:55Z")
> [@](#): > > …WHY DIDN’T ANYONE STOP HIM? Tackle him, bum-rush him, throw a chair, shoot a fire extinguisher, anything? We’re not talking Womens Studies or Fine Arts majors here; engineering students are probably 80% male. Other than a professor who held a door closed, no other men tried to stop him?.. This bothers me. Why should men be expected to risk their lives while women aren’t? ---
**Author:** ![Gundam\_Cricket](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@Gundam\_Cricket](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gundam_Cricket)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2007, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-mass-charge-stop-the-gunman/404253/25 "2007-05-17T16:14:20Z")
[QUOTE=alphaboi867] This bothers me. Why should men be expected to risk their lives while women aren’t? [/QUOTE] maybe leftover species survival instinct? Should some sort of catastrophic event occur and the need to repopulate the human species comes about, women would be more valuable than men as one male can impregnate multiple women. It’s not that women aren’t capable or are less capable, just that in times of stress I wouldn’t be surprised to learn we resort to said species-oriented instincts. And as an added bonus, less competition for the remaining men 😃 ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2007, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-mass-charge-stop-the-gunman/404253/26 "2007-05-17T17:58:30Z")
It sounds a bit silly, but remember the LIRR shooting by Colin Ferguson? The passengers on the train were so intent on the “hide and pray” strategy that Ferguson reloaded _twice_ IIRC before people awoke to the idea that rushing him was going to be a more effective survival strategy. I agree that it’s unreasonable to think that random strangers are going to leap to this as a first response. I think, however, it’s not unreasonable to talk about the fact that for some shooters it is going to be safer, for most, to rush someone intent on racking up a body count than to use “hide and pray.” I think it’s also worth noting that if one is the target of a mad rush of many people, I think it’s reasonable to expect that accuracy is going to drop compared to the shooter being unmolested and allowed to choose his targets at his own time. I remember hearing something about cops having problems with accuracy when being charged by a single person, and they’re trained for it. If I’ve got to eat a bullet anyways, I’d rather it be one from a hasty shot than a chosen one, myself. ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2007, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-mass-charge-stop-the-gunman/404253/27 "2007-05-17T18:06:57Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Perhaps some were, and were inevitably killed. [/quote] Actually, when I heard how many people died and yet it ending in him shooting himself, I expected stories to come out of people who tried to stop the shooter but failed. There were survivors in all the rooms he attacked, weren’t there? As the media loves a hero, even a failed one, I expected them to light upon anyone who fit the criterion at all; just look at the teacher who held a door closed. As there are no reports of anything like this even though there were eye witnesses present, I am inclined to believe it didn’t happen. > [@](#): > > A mass charge, after all, requires a mass, not a lone would be hero. Any people inclined towards that tactic who aren’t idiots will realize that a lone charge will accomplish nothing, and they have no way to start a mass charge in these circumstances. Actually, in a thread not that long ago I searched through a bunch of stories about school shootings and found that it is not uncommon for them to be stopped by one unarmed person, though as soon as the one person acted others often followed in to help him. Sometimes he died, most of the time he didn’t. Gunmen like this apparently don’t expect people to try and tackle them. > [@](#): > > They might try blocking the door or an ambush, but a frontal assault by one unarmed guy is a terrible tactic against a guy with a gun. I agree it is a lousy tactic, but the other available tactic to most of those involved was to lay on the ground and pray he thinks you are already dead, which is almost as bad for you and definitely worse for everyone around you. And it does on occasion (I wanted to say something a little stronger but do not have data to back it up) work. ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2007, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-mass-charge-stop-the-gunman/404253/28 "2007-05-17T18:10:35Z")
[QUOTE=Gundam\_Cricket] maybe leftover species survival instinct? Should some sort of catastrophic event occur and the need to repopulate the human species comes about, women would be more valuable than men as one male can impregnate multiple women. It’s not that women aren’t capable or are less capable, just that in times of stress I wouldn’t be surprised to learn we resort to said species-oriented instincts. And as an added bonus, less competition for the remaining men 😃 [/QUOTE] Or it would be simpler to say that men, for whatever reasons be they biological or cultural, tend to be more aggressive, not to mention bigger and stronger. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2007, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-mass-charge-stop-the-gunman/404253/29 "2007-05-17T18:45:59Z")
[QUOTE=OtakuLoki] It sounds a bit silly, but remember the LIRR shooting by Colin Ferguson? The passengers on the train were so intent on the “hide and pray” strategy that Ferguson reloaded _twice_ IIRC before people awoke to the idea that rushing him was going to be a more effective survival strategy. [/QUOTE] [Colin Ferguson](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Ferguson) was brought down by three passengers who rushed him. He had the advantages of surprise, shock, and shooting in a small space. And kudos deluxe to Kevin Blum, Mark McEntee, and Mike O’Connor for coming to their senses and rushing him, thus answering this question. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2007, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-mass-charge-stop-the-gunman/404253/30 "2007-05-17T20:06:45Z")
Of course, if the bystanders were armed, then they might be able to shoot back at considerably less risk. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2007, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-mass-charge-stop-the-gunman/404253/31 "2007-05-18T04:30:55Z")
[QUOTE=Quartz] Of course, if the bystanders were armed, then they might be able to shoot back at considerably less risk. [/QUOTE] Or they might have hit a few innocent bystanders before bringing him down. ---
**Author:** ![Chasing\_Dreams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/258eb7/32.png) [@Chasing\_Dreams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chasing_Dreams)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2007, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-mass-charge-stop-the-gunman/404253/32 "2007-05-18T04:59:06Z")
I don’t know all the details of the Virginia shooting, but I think that if someone came into a room shooting a gun, the first thing that would happen is panic. Everyone would be running around or dropping to the ground trying to hide. The average person just isn’t prepared to respond to gun fire. Also, your surrounding environment is a big factor in whether you can rush or not. If you are in a lecture theatre, like some of the Virginia students were, then it is pretty damn hard to try to rush someone without them seeing you. The shooter could just be standing near the lecture podium and spray everyone with bullets from a central point. The shooter can see everything. Also, in many lecture halls, the tables and chairs are bolted down. Even if you wanted to rush the guy, you have to consider your mobility. If you are in the middle of a row in a lecture hall, you will have a very hard time getting out of the row and into one of the staircases to run down. The best option that I can see is to throw textbooks and other paraphernalia at the shooter. If you are lucky, you can knock the guy in the head with a cell phone. This will create a distraction that may buy you some time to get into a position to attack. ---
**Author:** ![lachesis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@lachesis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lachesis)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2007, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-mass-charge-stop-the-gunman/404253/33 "2007-05-18T21:05:42Z")
probably the main reason actions aren’t taken against attackers is that no one ever thinks **in advance** about how they should react if attacked. police are trained in advance how to respond to crisis situations. school children practice fire drills in advance of actual emergencies. first-response teams practice disaster scenario drills. have you thought of what **YOU** would do, if confronted by a mugger? shooter? rapist? hijacker? FTR, i have. i’ll throw myself on the grenade/rush the gunman/swing hard at danglybits/find some way to fight back however i can. the watchwords: Batman, if he’s prepared. how do you think he gets prepared, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2007, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-mass-charge-stop-the-gunman/404253/34 "2007-05-19T02:58:19Z")
[QUOTE=Shagnasty] It would certainly work with a handgun. We have discussed similar scenarios in general before. It should take 4 highly trained people at max to stop an armed gunman shooting from an open position. Imagine the gunman being at the center of an X and 4 people charging into the center in a coordinated fashion from each point of the X for a surprise take-down. No one can shoot well enough and fast enough to take down more than two of them especially since they are converging from back and forth, left and right. However, it is likely that one person or possibly more will be hurt or killed themselves but the main problem is the coordination of effort under those types of circumstances. [/QUOTE] They would have to start fairly close, and there would have to be a distraction of some sort involved. Even throwing a wallet at the shooter’s face would cause enough of a distraction to allow someone to close in quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Khampelf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Khampelf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khampelf)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2007, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-mass-charge-stop-the-gunman/404253/35 "2007-05-19T08:03:32Z")
Throw your wallet at him? What are you? A Congressman? Seriously, most people just aren’t trained to immediately attack a gunman en mass. And that’s what it would take, training to make it an immediate instinct, because if you stop for a microsecond to think about what going to happen to the first wave, you won’t do it. When I was confronted with a (self professedly) armed robber while manning a till for a convenience store, I froze so hard, the crackhead had to reach across me to hit the button to open the drawer. Probably gave the dude frostbite. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-mass-charge-stop-the-gunman/404253.md?page=1)