# Would a massive outlay of solar power to North Africa create peace ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 18, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583 "2013-08-18T19:40:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/21 "2013-08-18T22:54:39Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > No, it’s oil, oil goes in cars and tanks, not money. There’s no need to fight over money because money can be printed cheaply. You just print some up and you have it. Oil has to be fought over. And if they have cheap solar power, how does that reduce their need to export oil? > [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > Who said overnight ? Not me. A full replacement by solar providing energy and water solves a myriad of problems - obviously. That’s not what you originally claimed. You wanted peace. Solar power in the US solves problems. So what? It doesn’t guarantee peace. Solar power in the Middle East solves some problems. So what? It doesn’t guarantee peace. > [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > You lay a cable, it’s a lot cheaper and more reliable than a pipeline and a fleet of tankers. No, it isn’t. You should get acquainted with electricity distribution. The US wastes huge amounts of energy transmitting energy from power plants to end users. And that’s just within the country itself. Transmitting energy across the Atlantic is a ridiculously inefficient and wasteful practice. Worse, it literally ties you to the other country. The US would still be in those countries securing the other end of the cable to make sure electricity keeps flowing and isn’t interrupted by a single guy with a cutter. How is substituting one monopoly with another a valid solution? Worse, if we aren’t importing oil, why do we want their electricity? They need us to buy their power, but we wouldn’t want it if widespread solar were a viable option. We’d just set up solar plants in our own deserts. Sending them money for solar is ridiculous. It’s just a way of giving them free welfare to replace lost oil revenue. And why would we do that? It just ties us to them as before, replacing oil revenue with solar revenue. > [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > Iraq was created by the British for their own energy reason in the first place. Whatever the history, the actual situation on the ground is what it is. When Iraq was still run by Hussein, sectarian violence was still a problem. It was held in check by massive oppression - just as it has been for centuries. The Middle East is one long, nearly unbroken string of squabbles and battles between nations, tribes, and sects. And that was before oil was discovered in quantity. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/22 "2013-08-18T23:04:47Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > The Middle East is one long, nearly unbroken string of squabbles and battles between nations, tribes, and sects. . But then, so is Europe. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/23 "2013-08-18T23:16:44Z")
> [@](#): > > And if they have cheap solar power, how does that reduce their need to export oil? Who export oil ? Saudi or Egypt or who ? Egypt doesn’t export oil. Obviously plenty of solar energy would obviate the need for vast oil dollar income in any oil exporting country. > [@](#): > > That’s not what you originally claimed. You wanted peace. I didn’t say absolute peace all the time. You think it should be all or nothing ? > [@](#): > > The US would still be in those countries securing the other end of the cable to make sure electricity keeps flowing and isn’t interrupted by a single guy with a cutter. Like the US is in Canada securing the flow of tar sand oil ? Or in Venezuela securing oil ? Beyond the paranoia about arabs, you may find diplomacy is enough - if they have a surplus of energy from massive solar deployment. Pipelines are getting popped all the time. Tankers regularly hit the rocks. Drilling rigs go up. None of that happens to cables. But I agree with your other thought - sort it out at home first and that cable won’t be needed. Of course, there’s always developing tech like graphene cables and such. Things change. > [@](#): > > Worse, if we aren’t importing oil, why do we want their electricity? They need us to buy their power, but we wouldn’t want it if widespread solar were a viable option. We’d just set up solar plants in our own deserts. Sending them money for solar is ridiculous. If you get your own supply, fair enough. Pointing at sectarian conflict doesn’t make the resource conflict disappear, no matter how much you point at it. Draining money out of your own economy would provoke violence and exacerbate sectarian differences. In fact it looks like your gearing up for massive repression yourselves. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/24 "2013-08-18T23:20:50Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > But then, so is Europe. Yup. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/25 "2013-08-18T23:32:30Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > Yup. Exactly. And having money never stopped \*them \*from fighting among themselves.\ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/26 "2013-08-18T23:44:49Z")
Europe was filthy rich, compared to the rest of the world, when it hosted the two World Wars. Pretty much every border in the world has been set by war. The MENA area had its borders imposed in it largely by European powers after WWI. I see no reason believe that there aren’t go to have to be wars and/or violent revolutions to settle things in that region. Putting a bunch of solar arrays there isn’t going to do anything to prevent the rest of the world from wanting to buy Middle Eastern oil. The OP simply doesn’t hold water (or oil) and there has been no evidence presented that the thesis is even remotely correct. Besides, I don’t even know how many of the problems in that region ave their source in conflicts over oil. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/27 "2013-08-18T23:48:00Z")
> [@](#): > > You’re there because of oil. > > Give everyone solar, no need for oil, take away bases, people calm down. Yes we are there because of oil. They can buy their own solar, or nuclear. Whatever they want. The Saudis did, and Kuwait too. Iran has nuclear power so they can sell oil. If there’s not enough oil money to go around, ask those guys. They have the oil money. ---
**Author:** ![ruben4ruben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@ruben4ruben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruben4ruben)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/28 "2013-08-18T23:52:02Z")
No it wont. The ruler of this world does not want peace. There has never been complete peace under the current ruler of this world. (nor justice) He enjoys suffering and bloodshed. Liars and thieves prosper in this world. Murderers and war mongers get international awards. And the bloodshed increases day by day, just check the news. Example: When offered \*\*free \*\*solar panels by charitable organizations, dictators have said they don’t want it because they want the people to know whom has the power to switch off the light and turn it on. They don’t care about the hard conditions and power failures. **They just don’t care.** (George Carlin expressed it stronger) Just because \*\*you \*\*are reasonable and peaceful does not mean this world is. The Devil runs this world for the time being: 1 John 5:19 I wish those that think some invention or economical change will bring peace, justice and equality the best of luck. Let’s wait and see. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/29 "2013-08-18T23:54:10Z")
> [@](#): > > Example: When offered free solar panels by charitable organizations, dictators have said they don’t want it because they want the people to know \*\*whom \*\*has the power to switch off the light and turn it on. “Who”. Also, cite re dictators being offered free solar? ---
**Author:** ![ruben4ruben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@ruben4ruben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruben4ruben)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/30 "2013-08-18T23:59:21Z")
A friend did a website for a solar company around 2009. I told him i thought it would be a great idea to use solar in Africa and help the people. (i once thought that) He then laughed and told me this story about one African leader saying he wants people to know whom has the “power”. I don’t remember him saying wich leader, so sorry for not being complete. If i can find out, i’ll post it. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/31 "2013-08-19T00:09:25Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Oh, please - the Middle East has a multi-thousand year history of conflict … As pointed out in post #6, that really is not true. I agree, though, that there is no particular reason to expect that building solar power arrays in the desert would bring peace to the region. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/32 "2013-08-19T01:09:28Z")
I don’t see the connection between oil and solar power. If they have solar they still want to sell the oil. If they have solar they still need oil to run their cars and for petrochemicals. Unless we’re also positing a fleet of electric vehicles and widespread new infrastructure to support it. But that’d be for the well to do, not the poor people who can’t even afford cars now. I guess if everyone has reliable electricity and AC at least they can cool off. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/33 "2013-08-19T01:15:58Z")
If a country has oil or other resources, people will fight over it. But if a country has nothing but dirt, people will fight anyway. The only difference is nobody outside of the country cares when people in a dirt country fight. ---
**Author:** ![NotDeadYet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NotDeadYet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotDeadYet)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/34 "2013-08-19T01:33:51Z")
They have oil in N. Africa so solar won’t do much. When (not if) oil is replaced by alternative forms of energy in the West, India and China N. Africa and the Middle East will have a commodity nobody needs and no other sourse of income. So not only will the poor be poor, but sooner or later so will the privileged few. There will be a rise in violence and the radical Islamists will vie for power (and like the Taliban, take it.) The US will stay involved to the extent that Israel will continue to be at risk from radical Islam. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/35 "2013-08-19T01:43:36Z")
I’m still trying to understand the reason behind building solar power infrastructure in North Africa, and extending that construction project to also include the Middle East will bring peace to the region. > [@ruben4ruben](#): > > A friend did a website for a solar company around 2009. I told him i thought it would be a great idea to use solar in Africa and help the people. (i once thought that) > > He then laughed and told me this story about one African leader saying he wants people to know whom has the “power”. I don’t remember him saying wich leader, so sorry for not being complete. If i can find out, i’ll post it. He should have told you the story about how the solar company that went around giving away solar power systems quickly went bankrupt. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/36 "2013-08-19T02:25:06Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Oh, please - the Middle East has a multi-thousand year history of conflict that predates petroleum’s value as a significant resource with global demand. No, it wouldn’t create peace. :rolleyes: It has a multi thousand year history period. The latest conflict is from circa 1914. Before that it was more or less peaceful since the 1500’s, thanks to Ottomon guns. Pkus the Middle East sits at the confluence of Africa, Europe and Asia. That is and has been long term FAR more relevant to its importance than commodity. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/37 "2013-08-19T03:18:02Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > :rolleyes: It has a multi thousand year history period. The latest conflict is from circa 1914. Before that it was more or less peaceful since the 1500’s, thanks to Ottomon guns. > > Pkus the Middle East sits at the confluence of Africa, Europe and Asia. That is and has been long term FAR more relevant to its importance than commodity. So, your point is that out of 4,000 years of history, a region was relatively peaceful for 10% of that time when it was under an authoritarian rule? I’m not sure what that proves going forward… ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/38 "2013-08-19T06:17:57Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > We tried bribing people so they’d like us before. Didn’t work. > > ETA: But they still cashed the checks. All except Castro. (Mind you, that’s rent, not aid, but still. . . .) 🙂 > **[Cuban–American Treaty of Relations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban-American_Treaty#Reactions_to_the_lease)** > > Cuban–American Treaty of Relations may refer to: ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/39 "2013-08-19T07:55:45Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, your point is that out of 4,000 years of history, a region was relatively peaceful for 10% of that time when it was under an authoritarian rule? I’m not sure what that proves going forward… And in the last 4,000 years how peaceful has anywhere been? Even if 10% is accurate that’s probably not bad over that period. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/40 "2013-08-19T08:01:44Z")
If you mean that they should export the solar power energy like they do the oil, then no, it would make matters worse. Exchanging one windfall resource for another windfall resource is not a successful strategy for any nation. You can’t base a nation on things that fall off the back of a lorry. They need to educate their population (in useful subjects!) and make stuff that they and the rest of the world want to buy. If they used the income from solar power to drive the process towards modernisation and a reasonable diversified economy and culture then it could be useful income, but they haven’t used the oil for this so there is little reason to think they’d use solar power either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583.md?page=3)