# Would a massive outlay of solar power to North Africa create peace ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 18, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583 "2013-08-18T19:40:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/41 "2013-08-19T09:03:36Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t see the connection between oil and solar power. If they have solar they still want to sell the oil. > [@](#): > > They can buy their own solar, or nuclear. Whatever they want. The Saudis did, and Kuwait too. Iran has nuclear power so they can sell oil. I’m seeing the results of national obsessions cultivated by constant and repetitive media focus here, I think. My post said N Africa and Middle East, and I repeatedly mentioned Egypt as an example of a state that has run short of oil supply and is now in turmoil - as predicted by peak oilers by the way. Nobody wants to touch that one. Yet here we are with the obsession about Saudi and Iran, because they loom large in your minds as important to you. > [@](#): > > They need to educate their population (in useful subjects!) and make stuff that they and the rest of the world want to buy. If they used the income from solar power to drive the process towards modernisation and a reasonable diversified economy and culture then it could be useful income, but they haven’t used the oil for this. Dubai. Jeddah. Skyscrapers, artificial islands. New universities. The vast opulence of the oil sheiks, thousands of miltary sent to Sandhurst and West Point, generations of young sent to Oxford, Yale, Sorbonne. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/42 "2013-08-19T09:08:45Z")
[http://www.desertec.org/en/concept/benefits/](http://www.desertec.org/en/concept/benefits/) ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/43 "2013-08-19T12:47:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, your point is that out of 4,000 years of history, a region was relatively peaceful for 10% of that time when it was under an authoritarian rule? I’m not sure what that proves going forward… No. I am just giving examples of long periods of reletive peace. Others are from 490BC till about 330 BC (mostly), 54 BC till 117 AD, 717 AD till 1090 AD etc etc. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/44 "2013-08-19T12:55:27Z")
I think the point is that on average, the Middle East is no less peaceful than anywhere else in the world. It just happens to be a bit less peaceful _now_, in the specific point in history you and I are alive in. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/45 "2013-08-19T13:11:32Z")
The point as it pertains to this thread is the cause of that unrest in this specific point in history, and if a massive solar construction project will help ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/46 "2013-08-19T13:33:33Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > There’s no need to fight over money because money can be printed cheaply. You just print some up and you have it. Seriously? That’s how you think? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/47 "2013-08-19T14:08:43Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > And in the last 4,000 years how peaceful has anywhere been? . Not very. But the question is, what brings peace? I don’t think solar power does or will. And when the OP makes statements like this to advice his thesis: > [@](#): > > There’s no need to fight over money because money can be printed cheaply. You just print some up and you have it. One wonders why anyone would consider his or her idea on the subject seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/48 "2013-08-19T14:12:35Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > My post said N Africa and Middle East, and I repeatedly mentioned Egypt as an example of a state that has run short of oil supply and is now in turmoil - as predicted by peak oilers by the way. Nobody wants to touch that one. I think part of Egypt’s problem is the change in their oil fortunes too- suddenly they have gone from earning to spending millions on fuel, in a place where there is already a lot of poverty. And what is a government supposed to do to pick up the slack? What could Morsi really do? What can the military do? The whole country is poorer. Setting up massive solar arrays would provide jobs, perhaps water for crops and other things as you suggest, cheap power and maybe some income from exporting power across the Med (I doubt across the Atlantic will happen). So maybe that would reduce poverty and quell unrest to some extent, but it still isn’t clear what kind of resources Egypt really has to work with to satisfy it’s giant population with, say, middle class lifestyles like you (used to) see in America. And even more to the point- it won’t bring peace because probably nothing can bring peace. History doesn’t seem to work like that. People seem to find a way to go back to killing each other sooner or later. Solar can only solve energy/economic problems, not the human condition itself. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/49 "2013-08-19T14:15:42Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > So much conflict in N Africa and Middle East is over oil resources, these places are sun rich - if they were given abundant solar power would it calm the constant fighting and terrorism ? That’s conflict over resources to **sell,** not **use.** Providing them with solar power still leaves a limited supply of petroleum to export to other countries, unless the other countries have also gone solar, which we won’t. The only resource-for-local-use fought over in the MENA is fresh water. Work on a plan to supply them with **that.** ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/50 "2013-08-19T14:31:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not very. But the question is, what brings peace? I don’t think solar power does or will. > > And when the OP makes statements like this to advice his thesis: > One wonders why anyone would consider his or her idea on the subject seriously. One does doesn’t one. One tends to wonder such things when one is walking one’s corgi’s. Please, if you are a snob, don’t bother. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/51 "2013-08-19T14:46:43Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That’s conflict over resources to **sell,** not **use.** Providing them with solar power still leaves a limited supply of petroleum to export to other countries, unless the other countries have also gone solar, which we won’t. The only resource-for-local-use fought over in the MENA is fresh water. Work on a plan to supply them with **that.** You make no sense at all. Some countries - the ones you want to talk about - sell, as long as reserves are up to it. Some don’t. Egypt, again, no one can handle Egypt, at least you don’t seem to be able to, doesn’t sell any more - it imports. And whatever is being sold across Africa and Middle East, doesn’t seem to be enough for most people to live well. I’m not just talking about Saudi princes. Maybe that’s because people like us grab it all through proxy dictatorships ? > [@](#): > > The only resource-for-local-use fought over in the MENA is fresh water. Just plain old wrong. You have a raft of revolutions, NATO military campaigns and terrorist actions all with a heavy oil conflict component. You also lost your WTC because Bin Laden didn’t like you on Arab soil - and you are there because of oil. It’s not even a local conflict anymore it’s right on your doorstep, but you think that oil has nothing to do with it. I feel sorry for you. You’re heading for some real shit over this issue. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/52 "2013-08-19T15:19:16Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > And whatever is being sold across Africa and Middle East, doesn’t seem to be enough for most people to live well. Define “live well”. Most have enough to eat. Their children (generally) aren’t in danger of being mauled by animals or impressed into marauding armies or high sea piracy. And most have access to potable water and electricity. That’s not up to Western standards of “living well” but it’s well beyond what they had before and beyond what many people in the world have. And it’s enabled through the use of petro-dollars. Look up a term: banana republic. That’s what they have. > [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > but you think that oil has nothing to do with it. Who even claimed that? What we have claimed is that oil has nothing to do **with PEACE**. Get rid of the flow of oil, and there is still no peace. There may no longer be Western powers intervening, but you still have a bunch of people squabbling, fighting, and dying. Only now, nobody else in the world cares. And since there’s no longer any oil money coming in, the poor sods are even worse off than before. Repeat after me: the alternative to “bad” is not automatically “good”. One alternative to “bad” is “worse”. And “worse” is often the actual result. Also: whenever you think you have a simple, direct, and blindingly obvious solution to a complex problem, stop and actually think for a minute. There’s definitely a flaw in it somewhere. Sociopolitical problems **never** have simple, direct, and blindingly obvious solutions. That’s been proven time and time and time again throughout all human history across all parts of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/53 "2013-08-19T15:24:45Z")
Actually, David Wong over at Cracked came out with something today that sums it up much better than we can. [7 Reasons News Looks Worse than it Really Is](http://www.cracked.com/blog/7-reasons-news-looks-worse-than-it-really-is/) ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/54 "2013-08-20T02:18:46Z")
That’s a great link, **Great Antibob**. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/55 "2013-08-20T04:27:08Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Actually, David Wong over at Cracked came out with something today that sums it up much better than we can. > > [7 Reasons News Looks Worse than it Really Is](http://www.cracked.com/blog/7-reasons-news-looks-worse-than-it-really-is/) But let’s post a [counter-link](http://www.salon.com/2013/08/17/chomsky_the_u_s_behaves_nothing_like_a_democracy/). ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/56 "2013-08-20T12:47:30Z")
BTW, when did Egypt ever have a petro economy. I know that in the mind many dopers, the Near East (not middle east as it is West of the Euphrates) is full of oil Sheikhs and dancing girls, but AFAIK and I do know quite a lot, Egypt has never had an economy based upon oil. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/57 "2013-08-20T14:09:36Z")
Egypt’s oil production and consumption look like [this](http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/peak_oil_food_fig11.png). They used to export up to about a half million barrels a day. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/58 "2013-08-20T14:49:25Z")
The problem is oil, it’s poverty - specifically the lack of jobs. Oil money doesn’t trickle very well. They need a diversified economy that employs more people that promotes growth, rather than selling a single commodity. Lowering energy costs with solar infrastructure will cost whoever invests the money a ton, and will only provide temporary construction jobs. There will be a sector of the population employed to maintain the solar plants but there won’t be any growth-oriented jobs being created that the region so desperately needs. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/59 "2013-08-20T15:02:15Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > But let’s post a [counter-link](http://www.salon.com/2013/08/17/chomsky_the_u_s_behaves_nothing_like_a_democracy/). Cracked vs. Chomsky? No contest. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583/60 "2013-08-20T22:12:40Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Repeat after me: the alternative to “bad” is not automatically “good”. One alternative to “bad” is “worse”. And “worse” is often the actual result. I’m not repeating anything after you you sad ballbag. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-massive-outlay-of-solar-power-to-north-africa-create-peace/666583.md?page=4)