# Would a MODER neanderthal-Human Couple attract attention? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 22, 2006, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-moder-neanderthal-human-couple-attract-attention/381439 "2006-11-22T17:12:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Tartuffe52](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tartuffe52](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tartuffe52)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-moder-neanderthal-human-couple-attract-attention/381439/41 "2006-11-23T05:46:27Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] Anthropologists are puzzled over the diappearence of neanderthal man from europe. I guess the concensus is that Cro\_magnon man wiped out the neanderthals. my question; would a modern neanderthal (dressed up in a $300o Armani suit), and suitable coiffed, look all that different from the rest of us? [/QUOTE] Ummmm the NFL during the off-season? ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-moder-neanderthal-human-couple-attract-attention/381439/42 "2006-11-23T11:26:48Z")
[QUOTE=solkoe] Scientists have now sequenced small fragments of Neantherthal DNA from the thigh bone of fossil. [Here](http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=77566) is a link. It claims a 99.5% genetic similarity. How this compares with variations within our own genome, I don’t know. [/QUOTE] Today I saw a bit in the newspaper that normal human DNA is a lot more different between individuals than they thought. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-moder-neanderthal-human-couple-attract-attention/381439/43 "2006-11-23T11:59:53Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] [Here](http://www.yale.edu/peabody/exhibits/fossils/fossils/neanderthal.html) is a really good reconstruction from the Yale Peabody Museum. If he were wearing a hat, you might not think him odd looking, but without a hat, that forehead just says _something’s wrong with this guy._ [/QUOTE] He looks just like a guy I used to work for - seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-moder-neanderthal-human-couple-attract-attention/381439/44 "2006-11-23T14:07:14Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] [Here is a group of pictures](http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?_adv_prop=images&imgsz=all&imgc=&vf=all&va=neanderthal&fr=my-vert-web-top&ei=UTF-8) (some good, some bad), [/QUOTE] I’m guessing that [this](http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/raider/neanderthal2.jpg) is one of the bad ones, yes? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-moder-neanderthal-human-couple-attract-attention/381439/45 "2006-11-23T15:44:53Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] I’m guessing that [this](http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/raider/neanderthal2.jpg) is one of the bad ones, yes? [/QUOTE] Yeah. Neanderthal women wore fur-lined bras. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![AWB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@AWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AWB)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-moder-neanderthal-human-couple-attract-attention/381439/46 "2006-11-23T15:55:14Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] Anthropologists are puzzled over the diappearence of neanderthal man from europe. I guess the concensus is that Cro\_magnon man wiped out the neanderthals. my question; would a modern neanderthal (dressed up in a $300o Armani suit), and suitable coiffed, look all that different from the rest of us? [/QUOTE] They might, especially if they were using [The GEICO website](http://www.geico.com). 😃 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-moder-neanderthal-human-couple-attract-attention/381439/47 "2006-11-23T18:12:56Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] I’m guessing that [this](http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/raider/neanderthal2.jpg) is one of the bad ones, yes? [/QUOTE] Hey, that’s Stephanie from _Survivor: Palau_, isn’t it? I thought she looked awfully familiar. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2006, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-moder-neanderthal-human-couple-attract-attention/381439/48 "2006-11-24T15:56:21Z")
[QUOTE=dropzone] …in order to give the appearance of “otherness.” [/QUOTE] My thinking is exactly opposite. I think recent reconstructions go out of their way to give the appearance of “sameness” – by giving the Neanderthals the same skin tone and hair patterns as modern Europeans. That seems to be the fad these days. There is no reason to believe that is accurate. For all we know, they were as hairy as Persian cats, and could no more be mistaken for a modern human than a mastadon could be mistaken for an African elephant. Here’s an [older image of Neanderthal man](http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9iby4ViEmdFq9oA62ujzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTBsdmIydTZhBHNlYwNwcm9mBHZ0aWQDSTAwMV83MA--/SIG=122lmd97h/EXP=1164469218/**http%3a//www.biblestudy.org/basicart/neander.jpg) from 1965, before the current trend to “modernize” Neanderthals. I can’t see this guy walking down the street without drawing stares. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2006, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-moder-neanderthal-human-couple-attract-attention/381439/49 "2006-11-24T16:18:26Z")
And [here’s another possible look at Neanderthal man](http://www.puntubi.com/argazkiak/neanderthal.jpg), which would in no way pass for a modern human. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2006, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-moder-neanderthal-human-couple-attract-attention/381439/50 "2006-11-24T16:32:26Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] Here’s an [older image of Neanderthal man](http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9iby4ViEmdFq9oA62ujzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTBsdmIydTZhBHNlYwNwcm9mBHZ0aWQDSTAwMV83MA--/SIG=122lmd97h/EXP=1164469218/**http%3a//www.biblestudy.org/basicart/neander.jpg) from 1965, before the current trend to “modernize” Neanderthals. I can’t see this guy walking down the street without drawing stares. [/QUOTE] You call it a “current trend to modernize”, I call it, “improved forensics and reconstruction science.” What used to be 90% “art” and 10% “science” is now t’other way 'round. (Yes, I made those numbers up.) Also, our British chap up above was shorn and shaved in that shot only so the skull and musculature was visible.. If you watch the linked intro, it shows him all wildly hairy and he definitely looks more “other”. Or at least more Grizzly Adams. I don’t think we have reason to think they’d be Persian cat hairy, simply because no other great ape is. We all have at least bare faces. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2006, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-moder-neanderthal-human-couple-attract-attention/381439/51 "2006-11-24T17:01:17Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] There is no reason to believe that is accurate. For all we know, they were as hairy as Persian cats, and could no more be mistaken for a modern human than a mastadon could be mistaken for an African elephant. Here’s an [older image of Neanderthal man](http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9iby4ViEmdFq9oA62ujzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTBsdmIydTZhBHNlYwNwcm9mBHZ0aWQDSTAwMV83MA--/SIG=122lmd97h/EXP=1164469218/**http%3a//www.biblestudy.org/basicart/neander.jpg) from 1965, before the current trend to “modernize” Neanderthals. I can’t see this guy walking down the street without drawing stares. [/QUOTE] Good points, although let’s specify that Neandertals presumably did not have pelts like bears or gorillas, but rather (if hirsute) looked like the guy at the beach who resembles the victim of a fraternity prank involving toupees. (You’ve all seen him or his counterpart – if he shaved his back, chest, and legs, you could stuff a throw pillow with the trimmings. Also your pachyderm analogy is better than you think. The mastodons had low, sloping foreheads (though apparently as intelligent as other elephantoids); the mammoths as a rule had high domed skulls with pronounced foreheads, much like the African elephant. And it’s believed (I’m not sure on what evidence) that the more southerly-range species of mammoth, the Columbian, Imperial, etc., were **not** shaggy like the woolly and the mastodon, but had the same sort of thick skin sparsely haired that typical modern elephants have. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2006, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-moder-neanderthal-human-couple-attract-attention/381439/52 "2006-11-24T17:04:44Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] You call it a “current trend to modernize”, I call it, “improved forensics and reconstruction science.” [/QUOTE] Well, no. At least not as concerns skin tone and hairiness. “Better forensics” can’t tell us anything about those because skin and hair do not normally fossilize. So I stand by my “current trend” comment. Current trends are to make Neanderthals look more modern, but there is nothing in the fossil record to support that. Perhaps DNA analysis will one day help us answer some of these questions, but for the moment its just guesswork. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2006, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-moder-neanderthal-human-couple-attract-attention/381439/53 "2006-11-24T17:12:00Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] …let’s specify that Neandertals presumably did not have pelts like bears or gorillas… [/QUOTE] Why should we assume that? We’re closely related to chimps, and look how hairy _they_ are. Why should we assume neanderthals would be less so? (Particularly given their north-trending climate range.) In fact, if Neanderthals looked radically different from modern humans (for example much hairier), it would help explain the newest DNA evidence suggesting that there was no interbreeding going on between the two groups. Who would want to mate with an upright gorilla? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2006, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-moder-neanderthal-human-couple-attract-attention/381439/54 "2006-11-24T18:45:17Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] And [here’s another possible look at Neanderthal man](http://www.puntubi.com/argazkiak/neanderthal.jpg), which would in no way pass for a modern human. [/QUOTE] As I mentioned in the GD thread, that cannot be based on a Neanderthal skull. The cranium is about right, but the face is completely wrong. We know how to reconstruct noses based on the nasal cavity and the angle of the bone just above it, and Neanderthals didn’t have flat nose like that. Their mouths did not project out that far, either. I don’t know where that came from, but it looks like a deliberate attempt to make Neanderthals look ape-like. We’re fairly certain they wore hides to protect against the cold, and they had fire as well. The more likely scenario is that were not hairy like a chimp, even if they might have had more hair than we do. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2006, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-moder-neanderthal-human-couple-attract-attention/381439/55 "2006-11-24T19:16:08Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] In the reconstructions, there seems to be an assumption that Neanderthals had the same hair patterns as modern humans. That may or may not be a valid assumption. hair doesn’t normally fossilize. For all we really know, Neanderthals could have been covered with thick fur. [/QUOTE] I was also wondering about the apparent assumption that all neanderthals were white. Any credence to that? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2006, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-moder-neanderthal-human-couple-attract-attention/381439/56 "2006-11-24T19:56:18Z")
It’s perfectly reasonable to give Neanderthal reconstructions _sapiens_-like hair and other superficial features. Given that our reconstruction techniques can’t actually determine those features presently, our best guess is to make them resemble their closest known relatives. Who, fortunately, we do have living specimens of. Yes, they’re reasonably closely related to chimps and gorillas, but then, so are we. And we’re significantly closer to each other than either of us is to the modern hairy apes. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2006, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-moder-neanderthal-human-couple-attract-attention/381439/57 "2006-11-24T20:04:35Z")
[QUOTE=Brain Wreck] I was also wondering about the apparent assumption that all neanderthals were white. Any credence to that? [/QUOTE] If you’re referring to it’s color, it’s not white. If you’re referring to its ethnicity, you’re anthropomorphizing. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2006, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-moder-neanderthal-human-couple-attract-attention/381439/58 "2006-11-24T20:10:45Z")
[QUOTE=Brain Wreck] I was also wondering about the apparent assumption that all neanderthals were white. Any credence to that? [/QUOTE] No, other than the thought that similar selective pressures would produce similar physical results. Also, Neanderthals and proto-Neanderthals lived in Europe for hundreds of thousands of years, unlike us who have lived there only about 1/10 as long. They most likely were much better adapted, physically, to that type of climate than we are. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2006, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-moder-neanderthal-human-couple-attract-attention/381439/59 "2006-11-24T20:20:55Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] No, other than the thought that similar selective pressures would produce similar physical results. Also, Neanderthals and proto-Neanderthals lived in Europe for hundreds of thousands of years, unlike us who have lived there only about 1/10 as long. They most likely were much better adapted, physically, to that type of climate than we are. [/QUOTE] And, to complete that thought, those adaptations include things like light colored skin to let the sunshine in to make Vitamin D, protruding noses to warm the colder northern air and light colored eyes in areas with less light…or, to “anthropomorphize”, roughly Caucasian features. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2006, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-moder-neanderthal-human-couple-attract-attention/381439/60 "2006-11-24T20:33:56Z")
[QUOTE=levdrakon] If you’re referring to it’s color, it’s not white. If you’re referring to its ethnicity, you’re anthropomorphizing. [/QUOTE] In many artistic depicitions and reconstructions, the skin is quite obviously closer to a caucasian tone, and the soft tissue facial features look more caucasian than not. I have never seen any depiction of a caveman with curly African-type hair or Asian-style epicanthic eyelids. I don’t think I’m the one who is anthropomorphizing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-moder-neanderthal-human-couple-attract-attention/381439.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-moder-neanderthal-human-couple-attract-attention/381439.md?page=4)