# Would a time machine kill religion **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 6, 2020, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537 "2020-02-06T12:45:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/41 "2020-02-06T22:32:01Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > If it’s proven they didn’t happen, then, they didn’t happen. And that would: 1. Increase your faith 2. Not effect your faith 3. Lessen your faith ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/42 "2020-02-06T22:42:00Z")
We all had a “time machine” (video tape) to revisit the Rodney King beating and to this day there isn’t a consensus on what really happened. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/43 "2020-02-06T22:47:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And that would: > > 1. Increase your faith > 2. Not effect your faith > 3. Lessen your faith Facts that are in the past are irrelevant faith-wise - if Japan bombed Pearl Harbor in December 1941 (which it did), “faith” has nothing to do with it - it is fact. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/44 "2020-02-06T22:55:12Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Facts that are in the past are irrelevant faith-wise - if Japan bombed Pearl Harbor in December 1941 (which it did), “faith” has nothing to do with it - it is fact. I am sorry if the question confused you. Consider it withdrawn. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/45 "2020-02-06T22:55:39Z")
Lots of regular churchgoers are comfortable with the idea that the Great Flood is an allegory. Adding the Sermon on the Mount to the list of allegories wouldn’t necessarily cause them any problem. On the other hand, if you went back in time, and came back with video of the Sermon on the Mount, lots of zealots would use that as a selling point. (While arguing fiercely over the proper translation from Hebrew to English, of course. 🙂 ) ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/46 "2020-02-06T23:39:27Z")
The idea that religion’s strength or value to its adherents is based on evidence is faulty. The combination of human traits that support religion (tribalism, a yearning for meaning, solipsism, etc.) are pretty impervious to evidence. You can pretty clearly see this in modern quasi-religious belief systems that have sprung up recently, and are directly contradicted by evidence that we’ve had for centuries. Flat Earthers for example. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/47 "2020-02-06T23:48:48Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > In all honesty, if you could build and demonstrate a working time machine, the structure of established scientific theoretical concepts would take a bigger hit than those of religion. In all the times I’ve seen this basic question posed over the years I never thought of it that way. But you’re right! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2020, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/48 "2020-02-07T00:49:33Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > Lots of regular churchgoers are comfortable with the idea that the Great Flood is an allegory. Adding the Sermon on the Mount to the list of allegories wouldn’t necessarily cause them any problem. > > On the other hand, if you went back in time, and came back with video of the Sermon on the Mount, lots of zealots would use that as a selling point. (While arguing fiercely over the proper translation from Hebrew to English, of course. 🙂 ) And if Jesus was recorded as saying “blessed are the cheesemakers …” ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2020, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/49 "2020-02-07T00:50:49Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > So the entire basis of this thread is your misunderstanding of religion. > > I think I’ve encountered more nonreligious biblical literalists like the OP than actual religious biblical literalists on these boards. On these boards I’m sure you’re right, because actual Bible literalists don’t last long. But go watch Ken Hamm sometime. There are tons of literalists out there. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2020, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/50 "2020-02-07T00:54:51Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > There may be people that believe that, but that’s not based off anything in the actual Bible. Nowhere does it say that god dictated the 5 books to Moses or that he wrote it down from a vision or anything like that. At least, no where that I’ve seen. In fact, in Judges there is a lot of mention of the Ark of the Covenant, but never a mention of the Torah, and as far as I remember no one lived by it. No mention at all until it was conveniently “found” in the Temple. One of the many things that made me an atheist. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2020, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/51 "2020-02-07T03:15:57Z")
First, your time machine wouldn’t be able to see further back than 6000 years. Secondly, it’s obviously a fake created by the Great Deceiver to test the believer’s faith. You can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2020, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/52 "2020-02-07T03:58:05Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > The idea that religion’s strength or value to its adherents is based on evidence is faulty. Despite being taken to church on a regular basis as a child and have attended my fair share of VBS I still don’t consider myself biblically knowledgeable. Still, I question the above statement. I remember reading a Time magazine article on religion. A leading religious leader, when asked about the historical Jesus, said it was irrelevant. The message was the important part, he opined. I absolutely do not understand this. If Jesus was not the son of God, and he did not die for our sins and then rise from the dead and ascend into heaven then wasn’t he just some guy with an opinion about the meaning of life? Most all religious people I know personally think these things happened because they read it in the Bible. This is (their) evidence. And that evidence is central to their belief. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2020, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/53 "2020-02-07T04:55:35Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > Despite being taken to church on a regular basis as a child and have attended my fair share of VBS I still don’t consider myself biblically knowledgeable. Still, I question the above statement. > > I remember reading a Time magazine article on religion. A leading religious leader, when asked about the historical Jesus, said it was irrelevant. The message was the important part, he opined. I absolutely do not understand this. The lack of evidence for the historical Jesus and especially the miracles is getting embarrassing to this guy. However, he still needs a job. So it is miracles, shmiracles. > [@](#): > > If Jesus was not the son of God, and he did not die for our sins and then rise from the dead and ascend into heaven then wasn’t he just some guy with an opinion about the meaning of life? Most all religious people I know personally think these things happened because they read it in the Bible. This is (their) evidence. And that evidence is central to their belief. While some of the more rational adherents would leave the church, others, especially those whose paychecks depend on it, will find obscure Biblical verses that no one noticed before which will be interpreted as a prophecy for whatever the time machine finds. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2020, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/54 "2020-02-07T04:58:07Z")
I will accept that facts and faith are totally separate when religionists reject supposedly positive evidence as soundly as they reject negative evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2020, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/55 "2020-02-07T11:21:59Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > A leading religious leader, when asked about the historical Jesus, said it was irrelevant. Says the man who knows the evidence isn’t as clear cut as some would have you believe, so let’s move on, and what kind of weather are you having your way? > [@](#): > > The message was the important part, he opined. I absolutely do not understand this. > > If Jesus was not the son of God, and he did not die for our sins and then rise from the dead and ascend into heaven then wasn’t he just some guy with an opinion about the meaning of life? Most all religious people I know personally think these things happened because they read it in the Bible. This is (their) evidence. And that evidence is central to their belief. Which is why it is important to find some kind of historical Jesus, the evidence should be overwhelming, I would think if one was to follow his teachings. And Jesus’ message wasn’t all of that, anyway, most would have a problem with his pro-slavery stance, eternal fiery damnation for those that didn’t think he was all that. ---
**Author:** ![DrForrester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8edcca/32.png) [@DrForrester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrForrester)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2020, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/56 "2020-02-07T11:23:59Z")
How many Biblical events are known with sufficient detail of time & location that it would even be remotely possible to go there just from a simple logistics point of view? Let’s say that you thought it would be great to get an HD film of Jesus giving his famous Sermon On The Mount. Could you even pick a year? Moving on just a tiny bit. Let’s say that you had an aunt who had successfully dealt with the technology and logistics & presented you with an HD film of the Sermon on the Mount. I wonder what things could be learned from it? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2020, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/57 "2020-02-07T12:25:40Z")
This discussion seems to be taking place in an alternate universe where nobody has transcendent religious experiences. But carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2020, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/58 "2020-02-07T13:48:25Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > I remember reading a Time magazine article on religion. A leading religious leader, when asked about the historical Jesus, said it was irrelevant. The message was the important part, he opined. I absolutely do not understand this. > > If Jesus was not the son of God, and he did not die for our sins and then rise from the dead and ascend into heaven then wasn’t he just some guy with an opinion about the meaning of life? Most all religious people I know personally think these things happened because they read it in the Bible. This is (their) evidence. And that evidence is central to their belief. I don’t know who the “leading religious leader” was, but one person who has said similar things is the late Marcus Borg (whom I would call a “scholar” rather than a “leader”). [Here’s one place he’s explained it](https://day1.org/articles/5d9b820ef71918cdf2003751/marcus_borg_response_to_tony_jones_about_the_resurrection), writing in response to a guy named Jones: > [@Marcus Borg](#): > > Note that Jones does not simply believe that the resurrection was material, physical, and bodily, but insists that it must have been so. Though I disagree I am happy to say to him and others who hold this view, “Believe whatever you want about whether the resurrection of Jesus was in material physical bodily form” - which I understand to mean that it was an event that could have been recorded by a news crew if they had been there. Believe whatever you want about that. Now let’s talk about what the resurrection of Jesus means. > > It means at least the following. Jesus lives: he is a figure of the present who continues to be known, not just a beloved figure of the past. Jesus is Lord: God has vindicated Jesus and made him both Lord and Christ. Thus the lords of this world, including the powers that killed him and the lords of culture today, are not. Imperial execution and a rich man’s tomb could not stop him, could not hold him. He’s still around, still loose in the world, still recruiting for the kingdom of God. What he began continues. He is with us still. He is “Immanuel,” which means “God with us.” I’m not totally sure I understand, or agree with, his point, but it makes a certain amount of sense: if the resurrection has any meaning or significance or result then it is that meaning and that result that are the important thing, not the mere fact that it happened (or how or when or in what sense it happened). (And if it doesn’t have any meaning or result, why would it matter whether it happened?) As to **RTFirefly** ’s point: I’ve never had any transcendent religious experiences I could point to as “evidence” for religion. But anyone who has might reasonably say something like “I’ve experienced Jesus in the present. Why should my faith depend on historical evidence for what happened in the past? My faith is ultimately about what IS true now.” ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2020, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/59 "2020-02-07T14:17:18Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > This discussion seems to be taking place in an alternate universe where nobody has transcendent religious experiences. But carry on. What if we went back in time and found that every one of these ‘transcendent religious experiences’ were caused by temporal lobe epilepsy or some other neurological cause? Would that not demonstrate that religion is a delusion, rather than reality? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2020, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/60 "2020-02-07T14:53:32Z")
> [@eburacum45](#): > > What if we went back in time and found that every one of these ‘transcendent religious experiences’ were caused by temporal lobe epilepsy or some other neurological cause? Would that not demonstrate that religion is a delusion, rather than reality? Of course not. God put that epilepsy there on purpose specifically to give that person a transcendent religious experience. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537.md?page=4)