# Would a time machine kill religion **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 6, 2020, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537 "2020-02-06T12:45:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stainless_steel_rat/32/5727_2.png) [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2020, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/61 "2020-02-07T14:59:28Z")
I remember a Science Fiction story (since much of this thread is rather speculative fiction) where a guy went back in time to prove/disprove Jesus, found himself stranded in time, and effectively \*became \* Jesus (the actual Jesus was severely mentally handicapped, IIRC). And he wasn’t saying “Eli, Eli” on the cross–the words were “it’s a lie, it’s a lie”… Can’t for the life of me remember the author or title, but the idea impressed me: That someone going back to that time with just the basic knowledge most of us have might well be thought of as a God… ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2020, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/62 "2020-02-07T15:24:17Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > This discussion seems to be taking place in an alternate universe where nobody has transcendent religious experiences. But carry on. I would argue that those experiences are based on the previous knowledge of the possibility of such things having grown up being exposed to religion. Does the western god show himself to Hindus? People experience all kinds of things that aren’t true. There are people who are 100% convinced they have seen Bigfoot or UFOs. Some people “know” that psychics can talk to their dead relatives. And what about things that seem real to people when on drugs. Your mind has the ability to trick you and there is no outside authority to judge if it’s true or not. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2020, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/63 "2020-02-07T15:31:32Z")
The OP wrote: > [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > If someone invented a time machine and anyone could go back and observe that these claimed events didn’t happen as described in the Bible … The OP presumes that our time traveler would observe that these events did NOT happen as described. Perhaps I missed it, but I did not notice anyone consider the possibility that our time traveler would observe that one or more of these events DID happen as described. Why the one-sidedness? This is a harmless thought experiment, is it not? Is anyone’s belief system (or lack thereof) being threatened by considering this hypothetical possibility? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2020, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/64 "2020-02-07T15:37:57Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > Perhaps I missed it, but I did not notice anyone consider the possibility that our time traveler would observe that one or more of these events DID happen as described. Well, I did ask: > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > if you could time-travel and see that certain events actually did happen, would that make you a religious person? If this got any answers, I missed them. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2020, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/65 "2020-02-07T15:41:55Z")
Yes, Thudlow, I neglected to mention that your post was the exception. My apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2020, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/66 "2020-02-07T15:47:28Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > Yes, Thudlow, I neglected to mention that your post was the exception. My apologies. I might be misremembering but I think Czarcasm posed it as well. I’ll answer it. Yes, I would be forced to reconsider my stance if I could observe several of the “miracles” described in the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2020, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/67 "2020-02-07T16:09:44Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > I might be misremembering but I think Czarcasm posed it as well. > > I’ll answer it. Yes, I would be forced to reconsider my stance if I could observe several of the “miracles” described in the Bible. I’ve been trying to think of my own answer in this instance. Of what would witnessing the miracles convince you? That there is a powerful spiritual entity guiding humanity? I concede that that would be tempting to believe. There would probably still be some among us who would be suspicious and strive to find out what God _really_ is. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2020, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/68 "2020-02-07T17:00:53Z")
> [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](#): > > I remember a Science Fiction story (since much of this thread is rather speculative fiction) where a guy went back in time to prove/disprove Jesus, found himself stranded in time, and effectively \*became \* Jesus (the actual Jesus was severely mentally handicapped, IIRC). And he wasn’t saying “Eli, Eli” on the cross–the words were “it’s a lie, it’s a lie”… > > Can’t for the life of me remember the author or title, but the idea impressed me: That someone going back to that time with just the basic knowledge most of us have might well be thought of as a God… Behold The Man, by Michael Moorcock. > **[Behold the Man (novel)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behold_the_Man_(novel))** > > Behold the Man (1969) is a science fiction novel by British writer Michael Moorcock. It originally appeared as a novella in a 1966 issue of New Worlds magazine; later, Moorcock produced an expanded version that was first published in 1969 by Allison & Busby (one of the first books published by the company). The title derives from John 19, Verse 5, in the New Testament: "Then Jesus came out, wearing the crown of thorns and the purple robe. And Pilate said to them Behold the Man". > In the novel,... ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2020, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/69 "2020-02-07T17:07:57Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Of course not. God put that epilepsy there on purpose specifically to give that person a transcendent religious experience. Sounds more like Loki than Yahweh. A classic ‘trickster god’ gambit. It would be very difficult to disprove that a trickster god exists (or otherwise), because everything He does could be interpreted as something else. Evolution= a trick. Fossils=fake. Distant stars = a light show. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2020, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/70 "2020-02-07T17:51:35Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > This discussion seems to be taking place in an alternate universe where nobody has transcendent religious experiences. But carry on. In this universe people would still have seemingly transcendent experiences, but would realize that these come from brain chemistry and do not indicate the existence of a supreme deity that worries about my sex life. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2020, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/71 "2020-02-07T18:12:10Z")
> [@eburacum45](#): > > What if we went back in time and found that every one of these ‘transcendent religious experiences’ were caused by temporal lobe epilepsy or some other neurological cause? Would that not demonstrate that religion is a delusion, rather than reality? Let’s put it this way: if I could mass-produce, distribute and sell whatever caused (and continues to cause) mine, I’d be richer than Bezos. If there was some neurological cause, I’d think someone in the field would have figured out a way by now to do just that. So color me extremely skeptical. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2020, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/72 "2020-02-07T18:30:34Z")
One’s faith is weak if it requires evidence. > [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > I don’t believe there has \*ever \*been a society without religion of some sort or anther on this planet. It seems to be an innate part of human nature. In [The Birth of the Gods](https://www.press.umich.edu/6484/birth_of_the_gods), Swanson surveys 50 “primitive” (fairly untouched by Westerners) societies and correlates religious beliefs with social structures. Some societies had zero gods or ghosts. So no, it’s not innate. > [@](#): > > Of course, much like colorblindness, there are always a few \*individuals \*who seem to lack the essential ingredients… Religious experience correlates with certain brain dysfunctions. [(cite)](https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/brain-religion1.htm) Maybe non-believers’ brains work better. > [@Ashtura](#): > > Even if you could go back all the way to the Big Bang, many religious people would say “God did that”. I have proof that travel to the past is impossible. Humans fuck-up stuff. If a human had traveled to the Big Ban, they’d have fucked it up and we wouldn’t be here. Our existence is proof. > [@Voyager](#): > > And if Jesus was recorded as saying “blessed are the cheesemakers …” Better is he’s recorded as saying, “blessed are those using zero in calculations” and “blessed are those who wash their hands before surgery,” - y’know, useful stuff. How come divine messengers don’t tell us useful stuff? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2020, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/73 "2020-02-07T18:38:05Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > I would argue that those experiences are based on the previous knowledge of the possibility of such things having grown up being exposed to religion. Does the western god show himself to Hindus? Hell, I had no idea that such things were possible until it happened to me - I was totally and completely blindsided. 🙂 Like many kids who were exposed to mainline Protestantism while growing up 50+ years ago, the idea that any of this could take on a reality in the present, rather than being something that only happened to people thousands of years ago, was never remotely hinted at in my upbringing. I guess young Baptists would have heard of being ‘born again,’ but I sure hadn’t. Not a hint, not a clue. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2020, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/74 "2020-02-07T18:40:01Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Let’s put it this way: if I could mass-produce, distribute and sell whatever caused (and continues to cause) mine, I’d be richer than Bezos. > > If there was some neurological cause, I’d think someone in the field would have figured out a way by now to do just that. > > So color me extremely skeptical. 🙂 Have you looked into the [God Helmet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet)? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2020, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/75 "2020-02-07T18:44:18Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > Better is he’s recorded as saying, “blessed are those using zero in calculations” and “blessed are those who wash their hands before surgery,” - y’know, useful stuff. How come divine messengers don’t tell us useful stuff? Based on human history, which stuff has it proven harder for humankind to get the hang of - the ‘useful stuff’ or the stuff that Jesus taught? I’m going with the latter. Hell, most of Jesus’ supposed followers that you hear about in the news seem to have it totally backwards. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2020, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/76 "2020-02-07T18:44:44Z")
> [@eburacum45](#): > > What if we went back in time and found that every one of these ‘transcendent religious experiences’ were caused by temporal lobe epilepsy or some other neurological cause? Would that not demonstrate that religion is a delusion, rather than reality? Maybe not. Religion might still be real. Let’s suppose for a moment that that there is an unseen being (whether this being is God or just an extraterrestrial doesn’t really matter right now) who does exist, and can communicate with humans via some sort of telepathy. It seems to me that there is no scientific way to determine whether the person is experiencing a genuine communication, or some sort of illusion/delusion. Neurological activity would certainly be present in the brain of a person receiving such communication. So tell me, how would the scientists be able to determine whether it is (a) the normal result of such telepathy similar to how there is neurological activity when we see and hear, or (b) temporal lobe epilepsy or some other neurological cause? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2020, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/77 "2020-02-07T18:54:10Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > Have you looked into the [God Helmet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet)? Hadn’t heard of it before. Looks like it’s got a mixed track record at best. Can’t say I’d be interested in trying it myself - I don’t need no stinkin’ helmet. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2020, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/78 "2020-02-07T19:00:18Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > In this universe people would still have seemingly transcendent experiences, but would realize that these come from brain chemistry and do not indicate the existence of a supreme deity That’s what people would do in ‘this universe’? Since it’s apparent that many of them don’t, clearly we’re not in the universe you describe as ‘this universe.’ Have you tried the universe next door? I’m told it’s a hell of a good one. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2020, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/79 "2020-02-07T19:24:41Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > The OP wrote:The OP presumes that our time traveler would observe that these events did NOT happen as described. > > Perhaps I missed it, but I did not notice anyone consider the possibility that our time traveler would observe that one or more of these events DID happen as described. > > Why the one-sidedness? This is a harmless thought experiment, is it not? Is anyone’s belief system (or lack thereof) being threatened by considering this hypothetical possibility? Which miracles, again? And do we have a good enough view to determine that there were not parlor tricks and such involved? Because there are lot of stage magicians who do impressive miracles five nights a week. But suppose we get a view of something really convincing and impressive - hordes of zombies rising from the dead and the sun going out for a day, say. In that case, my immediate response would be to acknowledge that the aberrant events must have had a cause, and to see if there’s some evidence as to what the cause is. There’s no particular reason to _worship_ the cause, or to accept the (other) wild claims of any specific religion, of course. Or to put more succinctly, my belief system wouldn’t be threatened because my belief system isn’t reliant on it being impossible for miraculous events to occur, spontaneously or otherwise. Miraculous events that are found to occur bear further investigation, because it could be useful to learn how to raise the dead or put out the sun. I can think of lots of good uses a sun-power-switch device could be put to - not all of which would be crimes against humanity, even. Seriously, it could be super-useful. If we found some eldritch entity that could do that we should enslave it as soon as possible. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2020, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/80 "2020-02-07T20:26:35Z")
A “miracle” can be an event that’s either impossible (good luck with that) or statistically highly unlikely. But even though any specific space-time event is most improbable, stuff happens anyway. I didn’t squash the squirrel that ran under my speeding car? Miracle! > [@begbert2](#): > > Miraculous events that are found to occur bear further investigation, because it could be useful to learn how to raise the dead or put out the sun. I can think of lots of good uses a sun-power-switch device could be put to - not all of which would be crimes against humanity, even. Seriously, it could be super-useful. If we found some eldritch entity that could do that we should enslave it as soon as possible. Humans can’t be entrusted with such power. Evildoers would run rampant. We’d be totally fucked. And [The Monkey’s Paw](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Monkey%27s_Paw) show what that raising-the-dead trick can do. Yikes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537.md?page=5)