# Would a time machine kill religion **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 6, 2020, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537 "2020-02-06T12:45:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2020, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/121 "2020-02-09T13:28:38Z")
Well, if Jesus existed or not, imagine what would happen when I hire a troop of actors to live in the past and play Jesus for my Biblical Time Travel Company, for a million bucks you can travel back in time and hear the sermon on the mount, see Jesus kick some money lender ass, crash a wedding in Cannan. (Heck we could be in Arizona and the clients wouldn’t know) OH man, I’m going to get so rich. What could possible go wrong? ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2020, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/122 "2020-02-09T16:01:18Z")
That’s a problem alright. We might send 21st century timetravellers back to biblical times, to observe the miracles and executions, only to find that a 22nd century theatre group has got there first and are busy enacting all the stories using state-of-the-art special effects. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2020, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/123 "2020-02-09T16:15:48Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > By discovering the definite falsehood of reportedly divine events, you would seek to push scientific knowledge into the realm of absolute positivist truths, which belongs entirely to religion. I don’t accept this at all. If we could look back in time (as described in Arthur Clarke’s _The Light of Other Days_) we could find out who Jack The Ripper really was, what really happened at Roswell, who really killed JFK, etcetera, etcetera as well as finding out the truth about Jesus and Moses. That all seems like a welcome addition to human knowledge. We would have a duty to find these things out, if such technology were available. If various religions are founded on hearsay and falsehood, we should have to opportunity to determine that. But in no way would it kill religion, since there are plenty of belief systems out there that do not rely on miracles and misinformation. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2020, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/124 "2020-02-09T20:11:54Z")
> [@eburacum45](#): > > I don’t accept this at all. If we could look back in time (as described in Arthur Clarke’s _The Light of Other Days_) we could find out who Jack The Ripper really was, what really happened at Roswell, who really killed JFK, etcetera, etcetera as well as finding out the truth about Jesus and Moses. That all seems like a welcome addition to human knowledge. … We would have a duty to find these things out, if such technology were available. Yeah, naturally, I disagree. I am not even convinced that the indisputable truth of these things could be known. Who _was_ “Moses”? Was there even a person to whom the material (compiled from multiple sources many centuries after the alleged events) can be attributed? And why would it matter? We are not living in the past, why ought we be concerned about things that most likely defy resolution to begin with? The person who carried out the murders in Whitechapel is long gone, not a threat to anyone today, other than by possible effect of someone desiring to emulate the notoriety. I really believe that there would he a cost to this kind of discovery. My position is that Chaos Theory is wrong just because the past is _not_ sharply defined, and if the past were to be brought into perfect focus, it would also yield intractable clarity upon the future, which is not a situation I would find desirable. But maybe that is just me. But consider the the potential impact of a theoretical time viewer, as was put forth in a speculative-fiction short story: the design of the device becomes public knowledge, anyone can build one without too much difficulty, and suddenly, that disgusting thing you did last week with that other person after too many cocktails can be viewed by anyone who might be curious. Are you prepared to accept the total loss of privacy that would result? > [@](#): > > If various religions are founded on hearsay and falsehood, we should have to opportunity to determine that. But in no way would it kill religion, since there are plenty of belief systems out there that do not rely on miracles and misinformation. The origins of religion are really not all that important. The effects are what matter. Religion provides firm answers to the things we to not understand – often useless, or even dangerously incorrect answers. It serves to suppress curiosity, exploration and discovery. It establishes an artificial horizon to knowledge. That is the part of it that needs to be fought most fiercely. We need to see the horizon of understanding as limitless. There will forever be new stuff to learn, perplexities to our models that beg for more exploration. We need to brusquely shove religion aside, because it is a dead-end to our growth and progress. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2020, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/125 "2020-02-10T01:12:59Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It was a both meaningless and loaded question at the same time. > > It’s best not to answer those. The [Admiral Ackbar]“It’s a trap!”[/AA] shtick is getting _old_. The question was neither meaningless nor was it “loaded”-it pertained directly to the topic of whether a change in evidence could effect the amount of one’s faith. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2020, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/126 "2020-02-10T01:31:48Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Couple of real problems with the hypothetical. > > … > > Which is to say, the premise of your hypothetical is deeply misguided. If that is indeed his premise, then I concur. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2020, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/127 "2020-02-10T01:36:58Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > Quoted directly from my post 17: _“My hypothetical of a (for all practical purposes, magical) time machine supposes all of the time/place issues could be solved.”_ > > I didn’t say I said it in the OP, I said I said it as the OP. But like I said, if you had read the thread you would have known that. > > Well honestly I didn’t know because with all your italics, all caps and frothing I didn’t see one word that actually addressed the OP. And you’re right, I don’t believe in God, Jesus or miracles of the bible, but “attack” seems a bit strong. I posted a hypothetical for discussion, nothing wrong with that. Why didn’t you just post your proof or reasons that you think a time machine wouldn’t change minds instead of launching into a tirade about ‘butt-fucking the laws of physics’ with my impossible, magical time machine? > > . Then why not say Post 17? There’s no “all caps”. Nor any frothing. And I did- because you couldn’t disprove anything. Anything significant, anyway, maybe some things only biblical literalists believe and they wouldn’t accept your 'proofs". Sure, no Great Flood that literally covered the entire world. No big deal. Not even the Pope believes that. And who is to say that by going back in time, you are viewing the real past, or that by going back you haven’t changed it? ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2020, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/128 "2020-02-10T01:37:36Z")
Joe Smith was a convicted con-man before he invented LDS. Doesn’t seem to bother Mormons. ElRon Hubbard was a failed naval officer and shoddy space-opera hack before he wrote DIANETICS. Doesn’t bother Smartologists much. I think Heinlein noted in STRANGER that most religions are started by scalawags who ignore social norms - which include honesty IMHO. Xianity was invented by a torturer and death-squad leader. Doesn’t dismay Xians AFAIK. The past is gone. The origins of religions are irrelevant. Only the current fantasy matters. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2020, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/129 "2020-02-10T01:41:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The [Admiral Ackbar]“It’s a trap!”[/AA] shtick is getting _old_. The question was neither meaningless nor was it “loaded”-it pertained directly to the topic of whether a change in evidence could effect the amount of one’s faith. Not as old as the “Just Asking Questions” routine. Hey why not give a opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2020, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/130 "2020-02-10T01:45:03Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Not as old as the “Just Asking Questions” routine. > > Hey why not give a opinion? Post #54. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2020, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/131 "2020-02-10T01:51:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > And who is to say that by going back in time, you are viewing the real past, or that by going back you haven’t changed it? If you view the hypothetical that was put forward as it stands without looking for reasons to ignore it as written, then it seems like a pretty easy question to answer. Personally, a lack of evidence for the miracles described in the Bible wouldn’t surprise me, whereas a confirmation of said miracles would cause me to rethink my position. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2020, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/132 "2020-02-10T05:55:50Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > Joe Smith was a convicted con-man before he invented LDS. Doesn’t seem to bother Mormons. ElRon Hubbard was a failed naval officer and shoddy space-opera hack before he wrote DIANETICS. Doesn’t bother Smartologists much. I think Heinlein noted in STRANGER that most religions are started by scalawags who ignore social norms - which include honesty IMHO. Xianity was invented by a torturer and death-squad leader. Doesn’t dismay Xians AFAIK. > > The past is gone. The origins of religions are irrelevant. Only the current fantasy matters. But notice that most of the people who lived near him agreed that he was a fraud. The religion only took off when the selected set of people believing in him isolated themselves away from doubters. Just like Christianity took off far from the site of the supposed miracle. Eye witness through a time machine evidence will change a lot of minds. Not all, but a lot. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2020, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/133 "2020-02-10T10:21:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > My position is that Chaos Theory is wrong just because the past is not sharply defined, and if the past were to be brought into perfect focus, it would also yield intractable clarity upon the future, which is not a situation I would find desirable. This is an intriguing possibility. In my earlier post, I mentioned Jack The Ripper; there are half a dozen plausible suspects, and many more completely unknown possible perpetrators. What it they all were guilty, each in a different timeline, and we can’t distinguish between them in the present because of quantum fuzziness? I don’t really see why de-decohering the past would necessarily impose intractable clarity on the future, but you might be right. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2020, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/134 "2020-02-10T16:18:17Z")
The closer you get to the present, the fewer possible pasts there are. If there is only one possible past a thousand years ago, then there is only one possible past a microsecond ago. Which sort of implies that we have no free will in the present. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2020, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/135 "2020-02-10T17:30:49Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > I don’t believe in Moses, historical Jesus, the great flood, parting the seas or turning water into wine. I’ve never claimed it to be a miracle, but I routinely turn beer into urine. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2020, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/136 "2020-02-10T18:25:03Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > I’ve never claimed it to be a miracle, but I routinely turn beer into urine. and girth ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2020, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/137 "2020-02-10T22:08:02Z")
Actually, lots of people can turn water into wine. They generally have to start by putting the water through a vineyard, though. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2020, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/138 "2020-02-10T22:26:15Z")
Absence of evidence and evidence of absence are different things. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2020, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/139 "2020-02-10T22:44:03Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > There’s no “all caps”. Ahem, post #95. > [@DrDeth](#): > > … of course once you have a MAGIC time machine and have butt-fucked the laws of physics… ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2020, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537/140 "2020-02-10T22:45:06Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > I’ve never claimed it to be a miracle, but I routinely turn beer into urine. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-a-time-machine-kill-religion/847537.md?page=8)