# Would alternative energy be the ultimate weapon against ISIS? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 26, 2015, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-alternative-energy-be-the-ultimate-weapon-against-isis/738643 "2015-11-26T16:12:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-alternative-energy-be-the-ultimate-weapon-against-isis/738643/41 "2015-11-27T03:10:15Z")
Mad world… > [@](#): > > They’re bitter enemies on the battlefield, but the Islamic State group and the Syrian government are willing partners in the marketplace. ISIS is trading oil from land it has seized in Syria to Syrian President Bashar Assad’s government for cash, according to a BBC documentary scheduled to air Wednesday night. > “There’s a business opportunity, there’s a need for both of them,” Danny Glazer, the assistant secretary for terrorist financing at the U.S. Treasury Department, says in the BBC2 documentary, [“World’s Richest Terror Army,”](http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05s4ytp) according to a story published Wednesday in the [Guardian](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/22/isis-fills-coffers-with-iraqi-government-cash)before the film airs. “The Assad regime needs the oil, ISIS needs the cash and they’re willing to do business even as they’re fighting each other.” ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-alternative-energy-be-the-ultimate-weapon-against-isis/738643/42 "2015-11-27T03:16:15Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > Treasury guy Danny Glaser. There’s a department for it, that’s him there. > [Front page | U.S. Department of the Treasury](https://www.treasury.gov/about/organizational-structure/Pages/glaser-e.aspx) Again, which cite are you talking about? 😕Is it your post 36, where Glaser says: > [@](#): > > “There’s been a lot of numbers thrown out and all the numbers are soft,” Glaser said. “But I can say in a one-month period earlier this year, ISIL (ISIS) made about $40 million in one month off of the sale of oil. So if you want to **extrapolate** that out, you can get to about $500 million in the course a year, and this is all internally generated.” > > But a senior counter-terrorism official said coalition airstrikes have reduced ISIS’s income from that $40 million dollar monthly high point. > > "Yes, they made 40 million in a month when they were more or less unrestrained. Before the airstrikes, or in the early days of the airstrikes… > > “I think \*\*the most important source of revenue for ISIS is the money that was in the bank vaults \*\*that was there when ISIL took control of the territory and in particular the bank vaults of the Bank of Iraq in Mosul, and the two big state-owned banks in Mosul but there were 90 private banks that had branches in ISIL-controlled territory,” he said. Again, what I’m saying is that some people see “$1m a day from oil” and assume that this is a lot of money and that it is most of ISIL’s income. The fact is that they stole a hell of a lot of stuff - billions and billions worth of equipment, both from Iraqis and Syrian security forces. They looted banks. They run kickback schemes. They control some huge percentage of Iraqi wheat production. An analogy is that GM makes a ton of money selling SUVs. Well, yes, they sell many SUVs, but that’s only one component of GM’s revenue. One cannot ignore how much they make from their auto loans, which is very lucrative. The point I’m making is that ISIL isn’t a one trick pony of oil revenues. Yes, taking that away would hurt, but that wouldn’t mean the group would fall apart. They’d just turn to other money making schemes, which they are surely capable of. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-alternative-energy-be-the-ultimate-weapon-against-isis/738643/43 "2015-11-27T03:16:25Z")
Full BBC docu, World’s Richest Terror Army [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-vlF4VSGq4) And that’s my night’s viewing. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-alternative-energy-be-the-ultimate-weapon-against-isis/738643/44 "2015-11-27T03:18:48Z")
There’s a link “rakes in up to 50 million a month” I can’t see how they would replace oil, without, as the CTC says, expanding - and they’re getting pounded. And as the other article says, they’ve squeezed all they can in taxes and gangster stuff. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-alternative-energy-be-the-ultimate-weapon-against-isis/738643/45 "2015-11-27T03:33:30Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > They’ve lost an enormous amount of tankers. Something like 500 recently between Russian and NATO strikes. Only so many trucks in the world, I would think burny things like oil won’t last long when attacked by explody things like bombs. Good thing they have other sources of revenue then, right? I’m unsure how you can see this and still believe what you believe, but what the hell, it’s not the first time I’ve been mystified by something you write that seemingly contradicts whatever point you think you are making. [QUOTE=GIGObuster] I agree with this mostly, the nit is in the part about “it hasn’t brought them to their knees” AFAIK, the latest news in the field for DAESH is bad, with Kurdish and Iraqi forces expelling them from cities. IIUC DAESH is relying on younger and younger recruits, and it seems to me that no amount of money can make an effective fighting force when they are being decimated. [/QUOTE] Oh, totally agree. While I don’t think they are on their knees quite yet, they haven’t fared all that great on the battlefield lately. But it’s not because of their oil revenue one way or the other, more like they keep biting off more and more before they have even started to chew on what they bit before. Then again, since they are basically an end times fundamentalist apocalypse type religion, their motivations and actions aren’t always what one would expect or driven by goals that more, um, rational people would consider. Since they seem to want to bring about the end of the world, and feel this is the way God has told them to do it, they seem bent on making as many enemies as possible to join the fight against them. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-alternative-energy-be-the-ultimate-weapon-against-isis/738643/46 "2015-11-27T12:10:35Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Good thing they have other sources of revenue then, right? I’m unsure how you can see this and still believe what you believe, but what the hell, it’s not the first time I’ve been mystified by something you write that seemingly contradicts whatever point you think you are making. I’m just looking at the proportions. They have all those other revenue streams, yes, but reports say they are maxed out. The bank raids were a one off, and oil looks to be roughly half their total yearly income. Unless, as in the West, most of the wealth goes to a very few who’s wealth reserves can be tapped when income dries up, it seems reasonable to assume that losing half your income would be crippling. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-alternative-energy-be-the-ultimate-weapon-against-isis/738643/47 "2015-11-27T20:20:03Z")
Regarding OP, though, it’s amazing how we still put up with energy inefficient buildings. I’m sure the tech has been there for a long time now to radically reduce energy use but for some reason we have to stick with old stock and methods. At least as far as UK is concerned. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-alternative-energy-be-the-ultimate-weapon-against-isis/738643/48 "2015-11-27T20:49:50Z")
Alternative energy that costs less than it costs to get oil pumped out of the ground would put an end to the current problems in the Middle East altogether, and then create massive new problems. Since this is not something that would realistically occur soon we’d better come up with a different plan, and start working on a plan for the day that we don’t need Middle East oil anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-alternative-energy-be-the-ultimate-weapon-against-isis/738643/49 "2015-11-29T19:57:52Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > We want windmills AND fossil fuels I’d prefer Nuclear over wind. But in the interim we have enough oil and natural gas for hundreds of years. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-alternative-energy-be-the-ultimate-weapon-against-isis/738643/50 "2015-11-29T20:34:58Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’d prefer Nuclear over wind. Interesting. Why? ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-alternative-energy-be-the-ultimate-weapon-against-isis/738643/51 "2015-11-29T21:29:02Z")
Alternative energy to stop ISIS is major case of tail wagging the dog. As noted, the ability of ISIS\* to motivate people to its ideology is the fundamental problem. They opportunistically use money from Syria’s minor (relatively speaking) oil production and stopping that would be useful, but wouldn’t get directly at the root of the problem. And it’s hard to say whether a Mideast in general with a lot less oil wealth would be a more or less fertile ground for ISIS and similar ideologies. Also the price of oil is less than half what it recently was, but that doesn’t seem to have particularly curbed ISIS. The other obvious point is that the world has a much bigger reason to replace petroleum and other fossil fuels than ISIS. But I’m afraid it’s infantile conspiracy theorizing to claim this is being held back by ‘oil interests’. The unfortunate fact is that as of now it would require a politically non-feasible reduction in world living standards to drastically cut global CO2 emissions. It’s a separate debate whether the threat from such emissions is so great that such a sacrifice in living standards ‘should’ nonetheless be made, but it’s just not going to happen as long as it remains as expensive as it is now. There’s untold wealth to be made solving that dilemma, a way or way(s) to drastically reduce CO2 emissions worldwide (or directly engineer the climate to offset the effect) at a feasible cost. And it’s reasonable to be optimistic that may happen, along with working to adapt to climate change in the meantime. But it’s not reasonable to claim it’s the case now, that’s self delusion. Anyway the uncertain effect of such a solution on ISIS is really a tangent. \*and similar, perhaps eventually worse groups: ISIS is worse than Al Qaeda, who is to say ISIS is as bad as it gets? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-alternative-energy-be-the-ultimate-weapon-against-isis/738643/52 "2015-11-29T22:02:27Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Interesting. Why? Turbines aren’t reliable because of wind variability. They’re prone to mechanical failure. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-alternative-energy-be-the-ultimate-weapon-against-isis/738643/53 "2015-11-29T22:09:03Z")
The ultimate weapon is to not walk away leaving humungous power vacuums in large chucks of oil rich lands occupied by peoples suffering societal levels of PTSD that you caused. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-alternative-energy-be-the-ultimate-weapon-against-isis/738643/54 "2015-11-29T22:35:47Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Turbines aren’t reliable because of wind variability. They’re prone to mechanical failure. Fair points. But I’m not sure that anyone is suggesting all-wind power generation. But I believe the idea is that wind power is quite cheap, so one might build a lot of that capability and use it when you can, and use some other source that’s more expensive (like natural gas) when you can’t. > [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > The ultimate weapon is to not walk away leaving humungous power vacuums in large chucks of oil rich lands occupied by peoples suffering societal levels of PTSD that you caused. That isn’t a weapon. That’s advice. Do we need to have a primer on the plain meaning of words? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-alternative-energy-be-the-ultimate-weapon-against-isis/738643/55 "2015-11-29T23:19:04Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Fair points. But I’m not sure that anyone is suggesting all-wind power generation. But I believe the idea is that wind power is quite cheap, so one might build a lot of that capability and use it when you can, and use some other source that’s more expensive (like natural gas) when you can’t. Wind power does not scale well. Ten nuclear power plants work just as well as one nuclear power plant does as long as you’re mining more than one power plant worth of uranium, but ten wind farms will not work as well as one wind farm will because not everywhere has good prevailing winds for wind power, and you can’t stick two wind farms next to each other without the front farm screwing up the one in its “shadow”. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2015, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-alternative-energy-be-the-ultimate-weapon-against-isis/738643/56 "2015-11-30T14:18:54Z")
> [@boffking](#): > > They get most of their money from oil. [Actually not.](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/30/world/middleeast/predatory-islamic-state-wrings-money-from-those-it-rules.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news) > [@](#): > > Interviews with more than a dozen people living inside or recently escaped from the Islamic State-controlled territory, and Western and Middle Eastern officials who track the militants’ finances, describe the group as exacting tolls and traffic tickets; rent for government buildings; utility bills for water and electricity; taxes on income, crops and cattle; and fines for smoking or wearing the wrong clothes. > > The earnings from these practices that mimic a traditional state total tens of millions of dollars a month, approaching $1 billion a year, according to some estimates by American and European officials. And that is a revenue stream that has so far proved largely impervious to sanctions and air raids. This is larger than the amount they receive from oil. The article states that ultimately the only way to break this is to take the territory back from them. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2015, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-alternative-energy-be-the-ultimate-weapon-against-isis/738643/57 "2015-11-30T15:54:26Z")
> [@boffking](#): > > They get most of their money from oil. Instead of yet another round of ineffective bombing, should we spend the money on alternative energy? If we stop buying oil, the price will collapse and ISIS will be broke. They seem quite excited about dying for their cause, and an American military campaign against them will only help recruitment. I think solar panels and electric cars will do far more damage to ISIS in the long run than guns and bombs. While it’s far from a magical solution, you do have a larger point. It’s not just oil funding, it’s about our need to be involved in the Middle East to keep oil flowing and the price low enough for us to buy. If we weren’t so oil-dependent, we could leave the region to its own devices. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2015, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-alternative-energy-be-the-ultimate-weapon-against-isis/738643/58 "2015-11-30T15:55:40Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > That isn’t a weapon. That’s advice. Do we need to have a primer on the plain meaning of words? How about the plain meaning of “metaphor?” ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2015, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-alternative-energy-be-the-ultimate-weapon-against-isis/738643/59 "2015-11-30T16:08:52Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > How about the plain meaning of “metaphor?” **coremelt** ’s metaphor was so bad that it constitutes a war crime. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2015, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-alternative-energy-be-the-ultimate-weapon-against-isis/738643/60 "2015-11-30T16:29:29Z")
Personally, I’m for wind _and_ nuclear. And for solar, too, once the technology matures enough to be competitive. And geothermal and tidal, and for conservation so we can get more out of the energy sources we already have. There doesn’t need to be one single solution. And while ISIS has other sources of revenue than selling oil, how many of those are indirectly dependent on oil? They’re funded by other nations: How much of their money do those other nations get from oil? They charge tax-like fees of their subjects: How much of the money for those taxes come from oil? Decreasing our consumption of oil would have many ripple effects through that region and the world, and most of those ripple effects would also hurt ISIS. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-alternative-energy-be-the-ultimate-weapon-against-isis/738643.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-alternative-energy-be-the-ultimate-weapon-against-isis/738643.md?page=4)