# Would America Won If We Fought the Russians Like Patton Wanted to at the End of WWII?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [August 30, 2001, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990 "2001-08-30T19:43:32Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Wildest\_Bill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wildest_Bill)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2001, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/1 "2001-08-30T19:43:32Z")
I mean could we have won? The Russians were pretty worn out by then weren’t they? Also if we would have kicked their butt would Russian be a US territory now? Or would we have given the land back like we did with the Japaneese?
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### Author:  [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2001, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/2 "2001-08-30T19:54:25Z")
HOnestly? I don’t think we’d even BE here.
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### Author:  [@Tedster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tedster)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2001, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/3 "2001-08-30T20:02:26Z")
We should have sent a team of snipers in to Berchtesgaden to wax Herr Hitler, and then disassembled the Nazi hiearchy about 1937 or so. Or at some point, anyway. Could have saved us a gazillion dollars in defense spending and at least a couple nasty wars. Crushing communism as it were, took another 40 years or so. Oh well.
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### Author:  [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2001, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/4 "2001-08-30T20:05:57Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \*
> \*\*HOnestly? I don’t think we’d even BE here. \*\*
Care to elaborate on why?
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### Author:  [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2001, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/5 "2001-08-30T20:09:15Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Tedster \*
> \*\*We should have sent a team of snipers in to Berchtesgaden to wax Herr Hitler, and then disassembled the Nazi hiearchy about 1937 or so. Or at some point, anyway. Could have saved us a gazillion dollars in defense spending and at least a couple nasty wars. \*\*
And what would todays world be like if this happened? In case you didn’t know, WWII helped get the US out of the depression. For better or for worse, the war led to improved technology which is the basis of much of the technology we use today.
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### Author:  [@Danimal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danimal)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2001, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/6 "2001-08-30T20:10:12Z")
I don’t think so. Yes, the Soviets were tired of fighting, but so were the Americans and so, more importantly, were the British. We’d never have gotten the British to cooperate, and without Britain as a base, I don’t think we could have plugged the gap in our lines that the British would have left before the Russians overwhelmed us. I don’t remember the exact numbers, but America had somewhere around 50 divisions in Europe; the Soviets had more than 200, with vastly superior tanks, though inferior air power.
If the G.I.'s did manage to hold out for three months, things get a whole lot trickier for the Soviets, because the Americans would presumably have cut off Lend-Lease and the Soviet divisions would have started running out of supplies. American naval power would have cut the Soviet Union off from all sea-borne supply, and we might have begun to slowly strangle the Soviet Union. But that kind of war is lengthy, and takes patience, and inside three months Congress would have declared an end to the war under pressure from constituents who would be tired of seeing their children ground up into hamburger for such a completely pointless war against our allies.
Patton was a brilliant commander, but he was also psychopathically addicted to warfare. He proposed going on against the Soviets not for any political or strategic reason, but because he was utterly dejected at seeing the “glorious” war end. Continuing the war into Russia was an insane idea. While FDR was losing control of his faculties by 1945, he was heavily influenced by Harry Hopkins, who would never have allowed FDR to approve a war against the Soviets.
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### Author:  [@Wildest\_Bill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wildest_Bill)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2001, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/7 "2001-08-30T20:13:40Z")
Danimal,
Good post dude. But do you think we could have won?
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### Author:  [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2001, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/8 "2001-08-30T20:14:55Z")
Well, we probably would have started a full scale war, for one. Plus, if we had tried to invade Russia it would have been a complete disaster-has anyone EVER successfully invaded Russia, at least since the Mongols? I doubt it very much.
It’s just my opinion, and view that we probably would have anihiliated each other.
Bill, we could NEVER have kicked Russia’s but, at least not by invading Russia-there’s a reason for that. I don’t believe ANYONE has ever successfully invaded Moscow. Please.
While the Allies MAY, and I do mean MAY have won without us, they could never have won without Russia. I don’t think you realize how incredibly large the country is.
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### Author:  [@bernse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bernse)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2001, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/9 "2001-08-30T20:18:14Z")
I believe it would have been a certainty. Whether the remnants of the Whermacht, Kreigsmarine and Luftwaffe joined the allied forces or not.
The US had the Atomic bomb and I believe it _would_ have been used if necessary to prevent the war dragging out. The Allies could have invaded/fought the Soviets on both sides of their own country… I don’t see how the US/Allies could have lost, actually.
BUT - I’ve only thought about this for about the past 50 seconds, so I am sure someone will poke holes in it.
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### Author:  [@bernse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bernse)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2001, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/10 "2001-08-30T20:24:01Z")
Just thought of another thing. I don’t _think_ the Soviets had any heavy bomber capability until after the war (when they copied the B-29). Another feather in the cap for the west.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2001, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/11 "2001-08-30T20:26:16Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \*
> \*\* I don’t believe ANYONE has ever successfully invaded Moscow. Please. \*\*
I think the False Dmitri did. The first one, not the second…the one who overthrew Boris Gudenov.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2001, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/12 "2001-08-30T20:26:16Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \*
> \*\* I don’t believe ANYONE has ever successfully invaded Moscow. Please. \*\*
I think the False Dmitri did. The first one, not the second…the one who overthrew Boris Gudenov.
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### Author:  [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2001, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/13 "2001-08-30T20:53:21Z")
Yeah, but how long did he last?
And I don’t believe Godunov was overthrown-he tried to pass the throne to his son-didn’t he?
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### Author:  [@mrblue92](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrblue92)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2001, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/14 "2001-08-30T20:56:29Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \*
> **Well, we probably would have started a full scale war, for one. Plus, if we had tried to invade Russia it would have been a complete disaster-has anyone EVER successfully invaded Russia, at least since the Mongols? I doubt it very much.**
Germany didn’t exactly run to Moscow in WWI, but they did win in the East, didn’t they? Let’s not presume the Red Army is invinicible…
> [@](#):
>
> **It’s just my opinion, and view that we probably would have anihiliated each other.**
How’s that, exactly? I can’t see the Soviet Union invading the US proper, so I assume you mean the _armies_ would have annihilated each other.
> [@](#):
>
> **Bill, we could NEVER have kicked Russia’s but, at least not by invading Russia-there’s a reason for that. I don’t believe ANYONE has ever successfully invaded Moscow. Please.**
In all fairness, unless the US managed to somehow convince the Soviet people that they should fight for their own freedom from Stalin, it is very unlikely the US would have won. However, you should know that the argument of “no one’s done it before so the idea is ridiculous” isn’t exactly the most reasonable.
> [@](#):
>
> \*\*While the Allies MAY, and I do mean MAY have won without us, they could never have won without Russia. I don’t think you realize how incredibly large the country is. \*\*
I generally agree with that–the Soviets are rarely given their due for stopping the Nazis. Of course, seeing as how they made a deal with the devil in the first place, they were partially to blame that Germany did so well.
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### Author:  [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2001, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/15 "2001-08-30T21:04:59Z")
I’m not saying it can’t be done, just that Russian winters are nothing to fool around with-and the rocky terrain, the harsh climates-unless of course, we went in through the Crimea.
I’m not saying they’re invincible, just that I’m not so sure that the US army is. They may not have liked Stalin-the people that is-but they sure as hell wouldn’t like someone invading them.
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### Author:  [@Wildest\_Bill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wildest_Bill)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2001, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/16 "2001-08-30T21:17:20Z")
Hey Guin,
Just curious and this is not a slam on women or anything. But how or why do you know so much about Russia and war?
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2001, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/17 "2001-08-30T21:31:49Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \*
> \*\*Yeah, but how long did he last?
>
> And I don’t believe Godunov was overthrown-he tried to pass the throne to his son-didn’t he? \*\*
Well, ok, it was 2 weeks, but…
Godonov died, and his son and wife were assassinated, then somebody claimed to be Dmitiri, and with Polish help, took Moscow, but was murdered two weeks later. Then Vasilii Shuiskii (backed by the Sweedes) took over, and then in 1610, another false Dmitiri got Polish backing and took over Moscow. He lasted for almost two years, before the Cossacks murdered him and the Romanovs took the throne.
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### Author:  [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2001, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/18 "2001-08-30T21:32:33Z")
“Could we have won?”
No. I think it would have ended in a stale mate, just like in Korea.
The entire propaganda (in this case not bad) of the US was to enhance all our allies in WW2, even Bob Hope sang songs thanking the mighty Russian bear. The agreements reached at Yalta and Postdam made the ideas of Patton virtually an act of betrayal. Not that the Russians were below that, but the reality is we got to be the good guys in WW2 because it was the Nazis and Japan who broke treaties and agreements first, and then invaded nations. If we had done the Patton solution the support for an invasion of one of our allies, in an America that was celebrating the end of WW2 in Europe, would have been lukewarm at best. Not to mention that that fine documentary “Why we fight” would had to be put out of circulation.
As for using the bomb:
> **[The Presidents | American Experience | PBS](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/collections/presidents/)**
>
> In this award-winning collection, explore documentaries, biographies, interviews, articles, image galleries and more for an in-depth look at the history of the American presidency.
> [@](#):
>
> I think Potsdam marks the point at which Truman and Stalin don’t have a whole lot to say to each anymore. Their armies are essentially doing the talking. The Soviet army is occupying Eastern Europe and parts of Central Europe, moving into Germany. There American Army is driving towards Japan and the American Air Force is essentially go to bring Japan to its knees before the – before the Russian army can get to the home islands. Consequently, what we find now is that the armies have essentially set up the diplomatic situation, and the question is, how do you negotiate the Russian armies out of Central and Eastern Europe? This is a question that Truman could never solve, not even with the atomic bomb. He could never figure out exactly how to play what Stimson called his “royal straight flush”, the atomic bomb, how to play those cards in terms of getting what Truman wanted out of Stalin in Eastern Europe.
Many people forget that we would had to use the bomb in territory that had innocent people and allies, just to get to the soviet army.
Winning under those conditions would had required an even bigger slaughter than the one Europe had already suffered. Even America wanted peace, and time, to eventually deal with the Soviets.
Patton was removed from command to prevent him even from toying with the idea of attacking.
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### Author:  [@barton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barton)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2001, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/19 "2001-08-30T21:35:00Z")
Well, lesse. Patton got shut up fairly quickly after his choice comments, so this takes something of a bending of reality. No one save him wanted to keep fighting. The overall mood was take Berlin and then divide things up - the U.S. also was big on getting Stalin to help against Japan, which while both unnecessary and unreliable, was still the thinking. But let’s ignore all that and let Patton have his way.
The immense air power and near-unlimited supplies of the Allies, I think, would have prevented the Russians from quickly taking Germany if they attacked in full force - the coming winter and the sheer size of Stalin’s forces would have prevented the Allies from making any sort of real campaign until the spring of '46. I see Russia churning up a lot of soldiers trying to get through Germany, then an Allied counterattack in the spring that does equally little. Draw. If it continues, eventually the Allies win - Russia has no navy to stop the endless stream of American production and would have to sue for peace.
Sort of like the state of the things in the Cold War, though in that case Russia -does- have a navy capable of sealing off the Atlantic.
With Japan defeated, the Marines could certainly overwhelm Russia’s East, but there’s not much there to grab save one big port, and it’s a lllllong drive and supply line to Moscow from there.
If the British refuse to join in (which is certainly possible, though given this scenario I feel it necessary to assume the mantle of evil in England is easily passed from Hitler to Stalin) I don’t think this will make much of a difference. France was in no position to object to being a place to unload tanks - neither was Italy, for that matter.
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### Author:  [@realitytrip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/realitytrip)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2001, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/20 "2001-08-30T21:35:25Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \*
> \*\*They may not have liked Stalin-the people that is-but they sure as hell wouldn’t like someone invading them. \*\*
Hmmmmm. You do know that many disaffected minorities in the Soviet Union (e.g. Cossacks, Ukranians) were so eager to get out from the Stalinist yoke that they welcomed the NAZIS with open arms. Of course the Nazis ended up treating them worse and resistance started up. Although many resistance fighters were coerced into helping and often the resistance was harder on the local civilians than the Nazis. Several minorities fought for the Germans, and the incredibly idiotic policy of the Russians towards German escapees (“You survived the battle! You escaped from the German camps of war! Impossible! You must be a traitor!” :rolleyes: ) did not encourage Russian loyalty. Now, granted, that after the Nazi experience and the Soviet return (which was brutally hard on the poor villagers who had survived the Nazi occupation) they might have been leary of ANYONE coming into town, but they also knew that the US had helped them for several years (with Spam and tanks to prove it) while the Soviets had been using excessive force for years, so who knows?
This is not to say that the U.S. would have done well in such a war. They had better air power, but they would have been severely outnumbered and their tanks were no match for the superior Russian ones. Also, the only Soviet generals still left were quite good (they had to be to have escaped Stalin’s paranoid noose) and Zhukov might have been the best general in WWII period. They were also much more willing to accept casualties to get results than the American army or population would have been, especially after Germany’s destruction. I think the only victory possible for the US would have been a forced peace of Russia back to its own borders. The only people who could have really gained from such a “victory” would have been Eastern Europe and they would have only suffered from more years of war. All this conjecture IMHO, of course.
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