# Would America Won If We Fought the Russians Like Patton Wanted to at the End of WWII? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 30, 2001, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990 "2001-08-30T19:43:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/121 "2012-09-07T08:16:15Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Uhmm… cite? Because you know what’s close to valid: invalid. The only thing that history has taught us about land vs. sea powers and the winners is that the sea power has an advantage if the use of the seas is vital to the war. Use of the sea wouldn’t be vital to the USSR in this scenario. Even then it’s only an advantage and not necessarily the determining one. Athens, a sea power if there ever was one lost the Peloponnesian War to Sparta, a land power. What does it matter if Athens can beat Persia at Salamis? Here’s where sea power matters. The sea power can bring the fight to the enemy’s land. That’s often a decisive factor. No way the Soviets could have touched the US or any of its sea-protected allies. Granted that in what we’re discussing, the deciding battle will be seen in a land fight, the worse thing that can happen to the Americans is they will pull back from soviet territory. But the Americans and her allies can probably retake east Germany and much of the countries bordering the USSR. The former USSR was so big you cannot say the Soviet army can control its entire area. If the allies do a two-front attack, one from Poland and the other from Kamchatka, how much a chance do you think the Soviets have in pushing both fronts back? I’m of the opinion that will be forced to cede territory until nuclear weapons enter the picture. ---
**Author:** ![moonshot925](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f0a364/32.png) [@moonshot925](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moonshot925)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/122 "2012-09-07T23:21:54Z")
The USA had a huge industrial advantage over the USSR. In 1946 the USA produced 60.4 million metric tons of steel while the USSR produced 13.3 million metric tons. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/123 "2012-09-08T07:01:29Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > What does it matter if Athens can beat Persia at Salamis? > > Here’s where sea power matters. The sea power can bring the fight to the enemy’s land. That’s often a decisive factor. No way the Soviets could have touched the US or any of its sea-protected allies. Granted that in what we’re discussing, the deciding battle will be seen in a land fight, the worse thing that can happen to the Americans is they will pull back from soviet territory. But the Americans and her allies can probably retake east Germany and much of the countries bordering the USSR. The former USSR was so big you cannot say the Soviet army can control its entire area. If the allies do a two-front attack, one from Poland and the other from Kamchatka, how much a chance do you think the Soviets have in pushing both fronts back? I’m of the opinion that will be forced to cede territory until nuclear weapons enter the picture. Did being the dominant sea power help England defeat those colonies in the Americas? No Ever hear of home field advantage? It’s tough to invade a place and take it over and keep it. After all the war with Germany and Japan the US population may not want to invade Russia. It’s one thing to support a war to kick out an invading force from your friends. It’s different to talk people into being the aggressor. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/124 "2012-09-08T08:04:41Z")
The biggest navy then would not have controlled the entire US atlantic seaboard. Oh one thing: the UK did not have naval superiority during the war of independence. The combined navies of the French, Dutch, and Spaniards was bigger. ---
**Author:** ![Questioning\_Zion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/58956e/32.png) [@Questioning\_Zion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Questioning_Zion)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/125 "2012-09-09T20:15:59Z")
We wouldn’t have fought a 45-year Cold War had we allied with Germany \*against \*communism. And had the Germans not allied with Japan, we would only have fought in the Pacific Theatre. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/126 "2012-09-09T20:31:27Z")
The US wouldn’t have gone to war as an ally of Nazi Germany under any conceivable circumstances. The US didn’t declare war on Nazi Germany because it was allied with Japan. The US declared war on Germany after Germany declared war on the US. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/127 "2012-09-09T21:12:15Z")
> [@Questioning\_Zion](#): > > We wouldn’t have fought a 45-year Cold War had we allied with Germany \*against \*communism. Not many groups that could make siding with the Soviets the right choice. But Hitler and the Nazis did it. ---
**Author:** ![Questioning\_Zion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/58956e/32.png) [@Questioning\_Zion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Questioning_Zion)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/128 "2012-09-09T21:56:24Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > The US wouldn’t have gone to war as an ally of Nazi Germany under any conceivable circumstances. > > The US didn’t declare war on Nazi Germany because it was allied with Japan. The US declared war on Germany after Germany declared war on the US. I meant that the Germans’ alliance with Japan was unfortunate. But before the outbreak of war, there were active National Socialist parties in the US which grew under the German-American communities of New York, Chicago and elsewhere. At first, there were two groups: The Friends of New Germany and The Tutonia. They merged into “The Bund”. What may surprise you is that N.S. rallies were held and large groups of German Americans turned out in support of the Reich. However, these were not the violent Neo Nazis which serve no useful purpose today. Moreover, these rallies drew no joint support from the KKK. That Nazism was a racist, genocidal ideology came into vogue only after the end of WW2. The Nuremberg Trials were a mockery, accusing the National Socialists of making “lampshades and soap” out of Jewish people. Those accusations have now been discredited, including in the Straight Dope syndicated column. Dig deep enough and you’ll find much of the Holocaust to be supported by doctored photographs and tainted testimony. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/129 "2012-09-09T21:58:58Z")
You are posting this in the right thread – “Fake Facts”, if you hadn’t noticed. ---
**Author:** ![Questioning\_Zion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/58956e/32.png) [@Questioning\_Zion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Questioning_Zion)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/130 "2012-09-09T22:06:14Z")
Read _Eisenhower’s Death Camps. The Last Dirty Secret of World War Two_ by James Bacque ---
**Author:** ![Questioning\_Zion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/58956e/32.png) [@Questioning\_Zion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Questioning_Zion)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/131 "2012-09-09T22:11:04Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > You are posting this in the right thread – “Fake Facts”, if you hadn’t noticed. Lampshades and soap made of Jewish peoples’ skin. Both have been discredited. Gas Chambers and Crematoria are the next to fall victim to reality. If you look at anything manufactured under Nazi or current German industry, you see example after example of efficiency. The methodology of cremation under any circumstance was the use of coke and coal, and the time it takes to burn a body today is roughly two and a half hours. At the rate the Germans were said to have murdered people in gas chambers, the rate of cremation could simply not keep up. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/132 "2012-09-09T22:30:47Z")
> [@Questioning\_Zion](#): > > Lampshades and soap made of Jewish peoples’ skin. Both have been discredited. Gas Chambers and Crematoria are the next to fall victim to reality. This is not the right thread for this discussion. Start a new thread or find an active discussion where it’s relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/133 "2012-09-09T22:37:23Z")
> [@Questioning\_Zion](#): > > The Nuremberg Trials were a mockery, accusing the National Socialists of making “lampshades and soap” out of Jewish people. The accusations at the Nuremberg Trials weren’t that the Nazis made lampshades and soap out of the Jews. The Nazis were accused of killing the Jews. And that accusation was proven and has stood the test of time. Doctored photographs and tainted testimony? That’s the evidence the deniers use. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/134 "2012-09-09T22:47:00Z")
See above. Please take the discussion of the Nuremberg trials and those other issues to another thread. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/135 "2012-09-10T00:34:12Z")
Sorry Marley. Missed your instruction. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/136 "2012-09-10T02:25:05Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The accusations at the Nuremberg Trials weren’t that the Nazis made lampshades and soap out of the Jews. The Nazis were accused of killing the Jews. And that accusation was proven and has stood the test of time. > > Doctored photographs and tainted testimony? That’s the evidence the deniers use. My apologies. I was composing my reply when you posted. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/137 "2012-09-10T06:47:46Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > What does it matter if Athens can beat Persia at Salamis? Umm… wrong war. [Salamis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Salamis) was a full half century before the [Peloponnesian War](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peloponnesian_War). > [@](#): > > Here’s where sea power matters. The sea power can bring the fight to the enemy’s land. That’s often a decisive factor. No way the Soviets could have touched the US or any of its sea-protected allies. They would have no need to, which is why sea power is largely irrelevant to the theoretical war being discussed. > [@](#): > > Granted that in what we’re discussing, the deciding battle will be seen in a land fight, the worse thing that can happen to the Americans is they will pull back from soviet territory. But the Americans and her allies can probably retake east Germany and much of the countries bordering the USSR. The former USSR was so big you cannot say the Soviet army can control its entire area. If the allies do a two-front attack, one from Poland and the other from Kamchatka, how much a chance do you think the Soviets have in pushing both fronts back? I’m of the opinion that will be forced to cede territory until nuclear weapons enter the picture. No, the worst thing that could happen would be the Western Allies kicked off of the continent, which is what was considered the likely outcome in Operation Unthinkable. Do you have any idea where [Kamchatka](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamchatka_Peninsula)is? It’s bad enough when silly ideas like attacking towards Siberia from Vladivostok get mentioned, but at least there is a rail line connecting Vladivostok and Siberia. One may as well propose an invasion of Siberia via the North Pole. > [@Questioning\_Zion](#): > > Read _Eisenhower’s Death Camps. The Last Dirty Secret of World War Two_ by James Bacque This presumably falls under other issues belonging in another thread, but for those unfamiliar with his works James Bacque has made a career out of his nonsensical, discredited belief that millions of Germans were murdered after WW2 under Eisenhower’s orders first espoused in ‘Other Losses’. ---
**Author:** ![Rampant\_Coypu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/439d5e/32.png) [@Rampant\_Coypu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rampant_Coypu)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990/138 "2012-09-12T05:19:18Z")
Anyone who denies the Holocaust is calling Geddy Lee’s mom a liar. The lyrics of “Red Sector A” are Peart’s interpretation of her account of her days at Bergen-Belsen. “For my father and my brother it’s too late, but I must help my mother stand up straight.” Manya Weinrib’s (that’s Geddy’s mom) father and brother developed medical problems in the camp and were put on the fast track to death. She tried to cover up her own mother’s difficulties so she would not meet the same fate. Even after the camp was liberated by the British army, the deaths continued. Many had typhus or simply caved in due to the near starvation diet. There were still mass graves, though they tried to bury the dead a little more honorably, but how can any bulldozer burial really be honorable. Geddy’s parents met and married at the displaced persons camp at Bergen-Belsen. They were allowed to emigrate to Canada, had three children, and rock history was made. Geddy’s dad died at a young age due to chronic health conditions resulting from his mistreatment in the concentration camps. If you deny the Holocaust, you are messing with Geddy Lee. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-america-won-if-we-fought-the-russians-like-patton-wanted-to-at-the-end-of-wwii/78990.md?page=6)