# Would American forefathers want us to overthrow the government? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 9, 2005, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228 "2005-02-09T17:40:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/21 "2005-02-09T21:54:39Z")
I believe that the true legal and moral authority to govern the United States is derived from the people, as expressed in a Constitutional Convention. If enough people want to get rid of the current government tomorrow, they are free to organize a new Constitutional Convention, like the one that replaced the Articles of Confederation with the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/22 "2005-02-09T22:42:14Z")
_sigh_ No, the founders wouldn’t advocate overthrowing of the popularly elected government of the US just because they disagreed with the current administrations perchants for foreign adventures. They would advocate going to the polls and electing a new government…you know, democracy and all that. Its hard to imagine why anyone in their right mind would think that the founding fathers (or anyone else with any intellegence) would advocate revolution when we have the vote. As other posters have pointed out, I’m sure they’d be with you though if Bush desides to set aside the constitution and make himself king or something…I’ll be with you too. But I’m not holding my breath for this to happen…my tinfoil beanie just isn’t that thick. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No they can’t, Lemur. We don’t have a parliamentary system, there’s no such thing as a vote of no confidence. Bush and Co are in the saddle until 2009. The only remedy that might be invoked before that time is impeachment, which can only be used if a majority of the H of R decides Bush has done something that constitutes a “high crime or misdemeanor” as (un)defined by the Constitution, and if the Senate tries and convicts him; and, of course, both houses are controlled by the Pubs, at least until 2007. And impeaching Bush would just put another Pub in the White House – Cheney, or somebody further down the line of succession. I see little to choose between them. So, short of revolution, we’re pretty much stuck with the status quo. Two words…horse shit. No president (or any other politician) could survive in office if 80-90% of the population turned against them, and no congressmen/women who desired re-election would fail to impeach a president that unpopular if he went against the congress and took us to another war with no authorization (unlike the last one where he had said authorization from congress). Come on BG…get real here. I know you dislike Bush but you have to keep this thing in the realm of reality. -XT ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/23 "2005-02-09T23:12:12Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Who cares what they would want? Edmund Burke was full of shit. We owe everything to our descendants but **nothing** to our ancestors. It is because we owe All to our descendants that some of us need to learn the Truth that some our Forefathers understood intuitively. Peace through Liberty rwjefferson ---
**Author:** ![laigle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@laigle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/laigle)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/24 "2005-02-09T23:24:06Z")
Our forefathers wouldn’t have wanted most of us to vote. They would have wanted a sizeable percentage of us to get off our asses and get back to picking cotton, right damn quick. As far as their reaction to Bush, our country was founded on the notion that great, noble principles require free men to weasel out of paying taxes for the governmental services they enjoy, so I’d say he’d be okay on their list. Jefferson wouldn’t have liked the militarist bent our country has taken for the century and a half or so, but then Jefferson wasn’t the most well-liked of the founding fathers to begin with. Frankly, I think we should pack in the “What would our forefathers have done?” rhetoric and start thinking for ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/25 "2005-02-10T00:02:05Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > I thought that the point was right to representation, not right to overthrow anyone who doesn’t do what you personally like. If anything, I think the founding fathers would probably be concerned about your seeming need to impose your own viewpoint tyrannically over the will of the people who elected the leader tossing us into such a war. The point our Enlightened Forefathers stated quite eloquently was that the Government of the People has the DUTY to secure the Rights of All; even the Outcasts. A Tyranny of the Majority is Still a Tyranny. A Tyranny of the Religious is Especially a Tyranny. Ask any gay, or anyone in jail for a vice offense whether you might be a Tyrant. The exceptions to Right of the Pursuit of Happiness are not the ones you think they are. > [@](#): > > I believe that a minority asserting its will over the majority is a form of aristrocracy or oligarchy. I’m pretty sure the founding fathers weren’t aiming for either of those forms of government. Our enlightened founding Fathers clearly understood that the Masses could also be Tyrants. They understood that only a Minority were enlightened. That is why they designed a Republic and not pure democracy. They mistakenly thought that three sets of the Enlightened (Executive, Legislative and Judicial) would be enough to protect the minority from the majority. Republic (def): A government designed to enable the enlightened minority to secure the rights of all. (ant): Republican No, we have not succeeded…yet. Liberty for All Through Enlightenment ~jefferson ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/26 "2005-02-10T00:32:45Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > The point our Enlightened Forefathers stated quite eloquently was that the Government of the People has the DUTY to secure the Rights of All; even the Outcasts. > > A Tyranny of the Majority is Still a Tyranny. A Tyranny of the Religious is Especially a Tyranny. > > Ask any gay, or anyone in jail for a vice offense whether you might be a Tyrant. The exceptions to Right of the Pursuit of Happiness are not the ones you think they are.Our enlightened founding Fathers clearly understood that the Masses could also be Tyrants. They understood that only a Minority were enlightened. That is why they designed a Republic and not pure democracy. They mistakenly thought that three sets of the Enlightened (Executive, Legislative and Judicial) would be enough to protect the minority from the majority. But there is no way, other than a dictatorship, to ensure the rights of the citizens if you don’t do it democratically. The founders knew that democratic action was not infallible, but that it was still the best overall way to secure the rights of the citizens. You are confusing an “enlightened” dictatorship with a democratic republic. > [@](#): > > Republic (def): A government designed to enable the enlightened minority to secure the rights of all. (ant): Republican Did you just make that definition up? [republic:](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=republic) > [@](#): > > [ul] > > 1. A political order whose head of state is not a monarch and in modern times is usually a president. > 2. A nation that has such a political order. > 2. > 1. A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them. > 2. A nation that has such a political order. > 3. often Republic A specific republican government of a nation: the Fourth Republic of France. > 4. An autonomous or partially autonomous political and territorial unit belonging to a sovereign federation. > 5. A group of people working as equals in the same sphere or field: the republic of letters.[/ul] Nothing there about an “enlightened minority”. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/27 "2005-02-10T01:24:00Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > braaaaaains Dammit, someone beat me to it. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/28 "2005-02-10T03:12:57Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Yeah, but hypotheticals are the kind of loose talk that liberals use to undermine the President’s authority, and we have to nip that kind of insurrection in the bud. **Nip. It.** Yeah, let’s get rid of that pesky First Amendment because Georgie boy cannot handle any thought, let alone an opinion, different than his own. Shock horror! ---
**Author:** ![DrLoveGun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@DrLoveGun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrLoveGun)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/29 "2005-02-10T03:51:36Z")
> [@Dob](#): > > From [CNN](http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/02/09/rice/index.html) > > As it has been discussed many times on this board it looks like the US, well Bush Co. , is itiching for a war against Iran. The war against Iraq while demonstrated against still was supported by a majority of Americans. If we go to war against Iraq and lets say 80-90% of Americans were against the war, would our forefathers want us to rebel? And if so, to what extent? > > If Washington, Jefferson, etc were alive today what would they think of a government that continues to hunt for wars that havent been proven to be for the safety of the nation? Would they want the people to stand by? Or would they want more? > > Now, im not preaching the overthrow of the American government, but I would like to know what other Dopers think the founders would do…if anything. “The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.” Thomas Jefferson ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/30 "2005-02-10T04:04:52Z")
This question isn’t worth much. Just about anyone is going to have some very strange ideas about how things ought to be if you put them in some sort of time travelling machine and drop them off 220+ years in the future. All of the founding fathers would be genuinely shocked at how powerful the federal government was, and how intrusive government in general is. They would be abhorred that we were members of the WTO, NATO, the UN, et cetera. They would be shocked that we had military personnel based all over the globe. They would be dismayed that we had a huge military-industrial complex with an entrenched officer class. Everything is relative, and even with Bush in power the U.S. Government right now would seem beyond radical to an 18th century American, so far beyond radical they probably would have trouble finding the words to express their feelings on it. But they _were_ intelligent men, if before passing judgment on our modern society or President Bush they were extensively taught the history and developments of the nation that we founded in many ways they would probably agree with what was ultimately done. They would find fault with certain specific ways things happened, but they knew just as well as modern politicians do that ideals and beliefs must be sacrificed and compromised on in political situations. Once they saw that American interests could not be introverted because of the nature of the world they probably would not have much of a problem with us being “world policeman.” Isolationism was much more viable in the 18th century, and much wiser, than it is now. As for the invasion of Iraq, it’s hard to say what their opinion on that would be. But the founders were pretty ready and willing to wipe out indian tribes, go to war with the barbary pirates, go to war yet _again_ with England. The founders were not pacifists and military action was not something they looked at with as much deliberation as we do today, the world was more brutish then. ---
**Author:** ![EsotericEnigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e274bd/32.png) [@EsotericEnigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EsotericEnigma)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/31 "2005-02-10T04:45:29Z")
How would you successfully impeach or arrest a president who has the overwhelming support of law enforcement and the military? If such an unlikely scenario ever did happen, it would be like impeaching Napolean or Caesar. The only chance any hypothetical impeachment would have against junior is if he went willingly. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/32 "2005-02-10T05:09:51Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > The founders were not pacifists and military action was not something they looked at with as much deliberation as we do today, **the world was more brutish then**. Emphasis mine. That’s a pretty bold claim, given the brutishness of the twentieth century, and the continuing brutishness of the twenty-first. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/33 "2005-02-10T05:50:04Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Emphasis mine. > > That’s a pretty bold claim, given the brutishness of the twentieth century, and the continuing brutishness of the twenty-first. Eh, war hasn’t gotten less violent, no. War is less violent for very advanced powers in the strict sense that they do not lose as many troops when they fight less advanced powers. But the world is still brutish. And life is still brutish, nasty, and short for a great many people. But I was referring more to an intellectual brutishness. I mean, look at the Vietnam protests, all the clamoring about dead U.S. servicemen, dead Vietnamese villagers. Papers of the day of Washington didn’t lament the death of 50 Cherokee villagers killed in a raid. They also didn’t really act like it was the end of the world if 50 settlers out west died. You didn’t know these people, you didn’t care. Now at least the media pretends to care, and individual citizens will walk around with a heavy heart for a few minutes over such things. ---
**Author:** ![Puffs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c77e96/32.png) [@Puffs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Puffs)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/34 "2005-02-10T06:35:09Z")
> [@EsotericEnigma](#): > > How would you successfully impeach or arrest a president who has the overwhelming support of law enforcement and the military? If such an unlikely scenario ever did happen, it would be like impeaching Napolean or Caesar. The only chance any hypothetical impeachment would have against junior is if he went willingly. _He_ doesn’t have that kind of support from anyone. The law enforcement and military overwhelmingly support the US Constitution. Wich makes the current POTUS CinC of the Military unless he is impeached an removed from office. Law enforcement doesn’t have any constitutional duty to support the president. Kent STate notwithstanding, I find it very rediculous to think the US military would ever turn against the people of the US for one man… ever. And to suggest so is just hysterical partisanship that does no good to anyone, much less yourself. ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/35 "2005-02-10T15:10:31Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > But there is no way, other than a dictatorship, to ensure the rights of the citizens if you don’t do it democratically. A democratically elected Republic, where enlightened Statesman (not politicians looking to be re-elected) have sworn to protect the rights of all is currently the best mechanism available. > [@](#): > > You are confusing an “enlightened” dictatorship with a democratic republic. I Am not confused about the two. It was once thought that only educated white males could be enlightened. Now we clearly understand that all have that potential. Unfortunately, most (even of the educated white males) never quite reach it. > [@](#): > > The founders knew that democratic action was not infallible, but that it was still the best overall way to secure the rights of the citizens. And that is why they tried to insert layers of more intelligent people to protect itself and citizens from the tyranny of the masses. > [@](#): > > Did you just make that definition up? Yes, consider it a updated definition of a Democratic Republic. Peace through Liberty rwjefferson ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/36 "2005-02-10T16:08:49Z")
> [@EsotericEnigma](#): > > How would you successfully impeach or arrest a president who has the overwhelming support of law enforcement and the military? If such an unlikely scenario ever did happen, it would be like impeaching Napolean or Caesar. The only chance any hypothetical impeachment would have against junior is if he went willingly. Well, in the hypothetical given, something like 80-90% of the American people opposed the president. I suppose the percentages in the police and military might be somewhat different, but if 90% of the country opposed the president, why would you assume that 90% of the military supported him? Obviously, if the vast majority of people in America want someone to be dictator, that person will become dictator. Caesar and Napoleon didn’t become dictators simply because they controlled the military, they were also overwhelmingly popular among the plebians. If everyone wants fascism, fascism we shall have. The constitution only exists because everyone agrees that it exists. But that’s not what we’re talking about, we are talking about a desparately unpopular president attempting to seize dictatorial power, not a hugely popular president prosecuting a war that most people support. After all, if most people supported the president’s war then he wouldn’t have to seize dictatorial power anyway. The cops and the military don’t exist in a vacuum, they are American citizens just like you and me. Are you honestly claiming that if Bush declared himself dictator tomorrow a large percentage of the military would support him? Seriously, do you know anyone who has served in the military? What makes you suspect that most people in the military are just waiting for a dictator to support? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/37 "2005-02-10T16:23:52Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > A democratically elected Republic, where enlightened Statesman (not politicians looking to be re-elected) have sworn to protect the rights of all is currently the best mechanism available. But how do you go about determining exactly what those rights are, if not by democratic action? A constitution handed down from “on high”, no matter how benign, is still a dictatorship if the electorate can’t vote on it. > [@](#): > > Yes, consider it a updated definition of a Democratic Republic. There really is no point debating a definition that only you use. The rest of us will continue to use the true definition of Republic. You need to invent a new word to describe your proposed system, rather than corrupting a word that already means something quite different. ---
**Author:** ![Ace309](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ace309/32/1050_2.png) [@Ace309](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ace309)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/38 "2005-02-10T18:04:37Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > In the bud, Andy! In the bud! I believe you meant, “That’d be the bud, Bob.” ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/39 "2005-02-10T18:22:18Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Wait, so the OP wasn’t really trying to say that if Thomas Jefferson were alive today he’d probably be so upset with the Bush administration that he’d be driving trucks full of fertillizer into federal buildings? > > OK, fine, I can play that game too. > > If the evil robot zombies in BushCo engage in hideously unpopular and disasterous actions, they can be thrown out of office without armed overthrow of the government. We have a constitution that renders such speculation pointless. We know what the writers of the constitution would advocate, since they wrote the consitutional mechanisms whereby we can prevent such a dictatorship. It should be noted that the Founding Fathers were in fact revolutionaries who overthrew an existing government they found to be tyrannical. I don’t think they’re made of the same stuff our current conservative “patriots” are made of. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/40 "2005-02-10T18:43:01Z")
Sure, the founding fathers were revolutionaries who engaged in violent overthrow of the existing government. But I’m not sure what exactly you mean by the rest. Are you saying that they wouldn’t be driving trucks full of fertillizer into federal buildings like “patriots” like Tim McVeigh? Or that they WOULD be driving trucks into federal buildings, unlike “patriots” in the Bush administration? If the existing government is tyrannical I imagine most people would agree that violent overthrow of that government exists as a step of last resort, and the FF would agree. Do you mean to say that we are currently living under such a tyranny? Or that we aren’t living under tyranny? And if we are living under tyranny, have peaceful methods (ie, convincing 50%+ of voters to vote for another candidate) been tried? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228.md?page=3)