# Would American forefathers want us to overthrow the government? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 9, 2005, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228 "2005-02-09T17:40:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Puffs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c77e96/32.png) [@Puffs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Puffs)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/41 "2005-02-10T19:30:38Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > have peaceful methods (ie, convincing 50%+ of voters to vote for another candidate) been tried? Sure it has. But their logic has been found wanting. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/42 "2005-02-10T21:11:31Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > _sigh_ No, the founders wouldn’t advocate overthrowing of the popularly elected government of the US just because they disagreed with the current administrations perchants for foreign adventures… > > …Its hard to imagine why anyone in their right mind would think that the founding fathers (or anyone else with any intellegence) would advocate revolution when we have the vote. _“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, \*\*–That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government”_…\*\* > [@](#): > > They would advocate going to the polls and electing a new government…you know, democracy and all that. > > -XT What’s really hard to imagine, is that there are some left who still cling to the notion that the Founding Fathers were enamored with democracy. ---
**Author:** ![jeffh3000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/34f0e0/32.png) [@jeffh3000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jeffh3000)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/43 "2005-02-10T21:24:18Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Yeah, but hypotheticals are the kind of loose talk that liberals use to undermine the President’s authority, and we have to nip that kind of insurrection in the bud. **Nip. It.** Shhh don’t let “them” hear you…the secret military police monitor this board 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![jeffh3000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/34f0e0/32.png) [@jeffh3000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jeffh3000)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/44 "2005-02-10T21:37:31Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Emphasis mine. > > That’s a pretty bold claim, given the brutishness of the twentieth century, and the continuing brutishness of the twenty-first. Wouldn’t the founding fathers be considered terrorists by todays standards. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/45 "2005-02-10T21:53:46Z")
> [@jeffh3000](#): > > Wouldn’t the founding fathers be considered terrorists by todays standards. Hmmm. Which civilians did Thomas Jefferson deliberately massacre to inspire terror among the British citizenry? Yes, terror tactics have been tried and have sometimes succeeded throughout mankind’s sorry history, terrorism may be a 20th century word but it isn’t confined to the 20th and 21st centuries. That doesn’t mean that all war and all violence is terrorism. Terrorism is deliberately commiting atrocities with the goal of inspiring panic in the enemy. Did the founding fathers do this? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/46 "2005-02-11T03:46:57Z")
> [@laigle](#): > > Jefferson wouldn’t have liked the militarist bent our country has taken for the century and a half or so, but then Jefferson wasn’t the most well-liked of the founding fathers to begin with. Jefferson wasn’t even one of the Founding Fathers – that term (usually) means the delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Convention, which met while Jefferson was away in France. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/47 "2005-02-11T03:48:36Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > What’s really hard to imagine, is that there are some left who still cling to the notion that the Founding Fathers were enamored with democracy. Indeed they were not. Yet another reason why we should ignore them. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/48 "2005-02-11T16:55:59Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Sure, the founding fathers were revolutionaries who engaged in violent overthrow of the existing government. > > But I’m not sure what exactly you mean by the rest. Are you saying that they wouldn’t be driving trucks full of fertillizer into federal buildings like “patriots” like Tim McVeigh? Or that they WOULD be driving trucks into federal buildings, unlike “patriots” in the Bush administration? If the existing government is tyrannical I imagine most people would agree that violent overthrow of that government exists as a step of last resort, and the FF would agree. Do you mean to say that we are currently living under such a tyranny? Or that we aren’t living under tyranny? And if we are living under tyranny, have peaceful methods (ie, convincing 50%+ of voters to vote for another candidate) been tried? What I meant was that the Founding Fathers might be a little more inclined toward violent revolution than the average American politician of today, having had the experience of personally engaging in it. Whether or not today’s government would meet their definition of tyranny… who knows, really? Most scholars were swearing that Jefferson never had any kids by his black mistress … we know they were wrong. Maybe they are wrong about a LOT of things. ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/49 "2005-02-11T20:02:41Z")
Republic (def): A government designed to enable the enlightened minority to secure the rights of all. > [@John Mace](#): > > There really is no point debating a definition that only you use. The rest of us will continue to use the true definition of Republic. You need to invent a new word to describe your proposed system, rather than corrupting a word that already means something quite different. ”…and to the Republic for which it stands…” This is the Republic that tj et. al. envisioned. It is the misfortune of humanity that knowing the words is not the same as knowing the meaning. I dream that someday there will be enough enlightened people to make a majority. At that point America will fulfill the promise of her birth, and Freedom will truly Ring across the Land. Peace through Enlightenment rwjefferson ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/50 "2005-02-11T20:05:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Jefferson wasn’t even one of the Founding Fathers – that term (usually) means the delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Convention, which met while Jefferson was away in France. Baloney. ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/51 "2005-02-11T20:21:05Z")
> [@Dob](#): > > If Washington, Jefferson, etc were alive today …would they want more? IMHO - They would be gratified that we have ended slavery and extended voting rights to women and minorities; that we no longer segregate minorities (except gays). But they would hang their heads in sadness that People that do not threaten harm are still persecuted for “moral” reasons. Peace through Liberty rwjefferson ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/52 "2005-02-11T22:23:25Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > IMHO - They would be gratified that we have ended slavery and extended voting rights to women and minorities; that we no longer segregate minorities (except gays). But they would hang their heads in sadness that People that do not threaten harm are still persecuted for “moral” reasons. You’re joking, right? Washington and Jefferson were certainly uncomfortable with slavery – but every other change you mention would have horrified them. (Jefferson wanted the blacks, immediately upon emancipation, deported from the U.S.) And if you think either of them had an enlightened attitude about homosexuality, I want to see a cite. Jefferson is overrated anyway. They should tear down his statue in the Jefferson Memorial and rededicate it to Alexander Hamilton. Now **there** was a great American! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/53 "2005-02-11T22:38:59Z")
Yeah. Most of them were more or less ok with slavery, limiting the franchise and persecuting people for moral reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/54 "2005-02-11T22:44:23Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And if you think either of them had an enlightened attitude about homosexuality, I want to see a cite. To be fair, Jefferson did get a law passed in Virginia getting rid of the death penalty for sodomy. His new law said: “Whosoever shall be guilty of Rape, Polygamy, or Sodomy with man or woman shall be punished, if a man, by castration, if a woman, by cutting thro’ the cartilage of her nose a hole of one half inch diameter at the least.” ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/55 "2005-02-11T23:23:26Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > To be fair, Jefferson did get a law passed in Virginia getting rid of the death penalty for sodomy. His new law said: > > “Whosoever shall be guilty of Rape, Polygamy, or Sodomy with man or woman shall be punished, if a man, by castration, if a woman, by cutting thro’ the cartilage of her nose a hole of one half inch diameter at the least.” I stand corrected. It is truly amazing to me: Someone as immoral as tj has managed to write such a moral prescription; and one that so few even try to follow. So do you think it will ever be fulfilled? Do you see a flaw in it’s Truth? I fear we threw the Truth of the DOI it away with the Constitution. not~Peace through not~Liberty still, yet rw~ ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/56 "2005-02-11T23:46:12Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > It is truly amazing to me: Someone as immoral as tj has managed to write such a moral prescription; and one that so few even try to follow. 😕 Are you referring to the Declaration of Independence? I’ve never before heard that referred to as a “moral prescription” or any equivalent phrase. ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/57 "2005-02-12T00:39:20Z")
Moral Rx: “All have Rights, Equally. It is the Duty of the Government of the People to secure these Rights.” Now You have. Feel free to ask any other questions. If none, I await your response to mine: What flaw do you see in this Truth? I see none. r~ ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/58 "2005-02-12T00:40:57Z")
I can’t help it, it came with this body. I Am trying to be nice. Yes, I apologize, I knew what I was referring to!!! Apologies r~ ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/59 "2005-02-12T16:45:04Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > Moral Rx: > “All have Rights, Equally. It is the Duty of the Government of the People to secure these Rights.” > Now You have. > > Feel free to ask any other questions. If none, I await your response to mine: > > What flaw do you see in this Truth? > > I see none. > > r~ Jefferson’s statement “All men are created equal” is neither true nor false, in any scientific sense. It is an assertion in ethics. Robert Anton Wilson once characterized it as “neither true nor false nor meaningless; this is a game-rule of Jeffersonian democracy.” Just as papal infallibility is a game-rule of Roman Catholocism – either you accept it, or you ain’t in the game. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2005, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228/60 "2005-02-13T01:09:05Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > I’m pretty sure the founding fathers weren’t aiming for either of those forms of government. On the contrary – most of the Founders would have regarded the notion of giving some grunt-laborer schlub an equal say with a respectable property owner as preposterous… and the prelude to collapse into either dictatorship or anarchy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-american-forefathers-want-us-to-overthrow-the-government/289228.md?page=4)