# Would an updated boarding ax/gun work properly? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 12, 2024, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-an-updated-boarding-ax-gun-work-properly/1007161 "2024-09-12T11:49:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-an-updated-boarding-ax-gun-work-properly/1007161/21 "2024-09-17T12:32:37Z")
Given my age and condition and general lack of training, the dual weapon I’d like is a cell phone that automatically dials 911 and can then be used as a hand grenade. Mind you, if someone comes up with a bazooka cane, I might be interested, if it doesn’t affect the deductible on my liability and home insurance. ---
**Author:** ![Sigene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sigene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigene)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-an-updated-boarding-ax-gun-work-properly/1007161/22 "2024-09-17T14:07:05Z")
THere is/was the TP-82 Russian ‘space gun’ > **[TP-82](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TP-82)** > > The TP-82 (Russian: ТП-82) is an out-of-service triple-barreled Soviet combination gun carried by cosmonauts on space missions. It was intended as a survival aid to be used after landings and before recovery in the Siberian wilderness. > The TP-82 can be used for hunting, to defend against predators, and for creating visible and/or audible distress signals. The detachable buttstock also functions as a machete and is equipped with a canvas sheath. > The upper two side-by-side shotgun barrels use sp... ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-an-updated-boarding-ax-gun-work-properly/1007161/23 "2024-09-17T14:11:05Z")
> [@Kropotkin](#): > > Mind you, if someone comes up with a bazooka cane, I might be interested, if it doesn’t affect the deductible on my liability and home insurance. [Gyrojet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrojet) technology could be used to make an effective bazooka cane. Well… effective if it works right. The reviews are mixed. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-an-updated-boarding-ax-gun-work-properly/1007161/24 "2024-09-17T14:17:18Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > My question is, could you remake it with a more modern shotgun/rifle inside the handle? Or would something like the kick make it unwieldy? I don’t know anything about guns. To answer the OP, yes you could make a similar weapon with modern cartridges. I wouldn’t make a break-breech weapon like a double-barrel shotgun. That would be too prone to opening during use. A bolt action mechanism would be better. A semi-auto would work, but whatever merit method you works need a stout wooden body to sort support the mechanism. I would like to point out looking at this those pictures, most of those don’t look like very effective axes. They don’t have a lot of structure connecting the head to the haft. In particular, the bottom one looks downright hazardous to the user. I will also point out on the two hybrid versions shown, the blade is long and thin rather than broad. It’s clear thrusting is more intended than chopping. Those “axes” look practically like bayonets. By the description on that page, these were largely used in place of cutlasses, and likely against cutlasses more than other boarding axes. Thus the need to have less heavy heads for more reaction speed, and used more like a short spread spear that a heavy chopper. That’s my guess. > [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > But would the power of a more modern gun make wood not as durable or clumsy for a weapon? I Not at all. A lot of modern hunting weapons are wooden bodied and wooden stock. Military weapons moved to metal and plastic bodies for other reasons. Primarily fabrication ease and consistency, but also flexibility in attachments, foldable stocks, adjustability for the user, etc. Which also created the “tacticool” aesthetic. > [@ParallelLines](#): > > The question is, outside of the possible short story, is why? > > You’re going to seriously compromise _both_ the gun or axe component (in terms of cost, weight, structural stability and functionality) for what advantage? I agree. Hybrid weapons generally compromise design features for each separate use to accommodate a bit of the other use. Consider the bayonet. It originated as a way to use the original muskets as a pike replacement against cavalry charges. You inserted the pointy bit into the end of the barrel to hold it in place. As tactics changed and cavalry faded, firearms shortened because pikes weren’t needed. Bayonets were still useful during the Civil War for charges on opposing forces. As combat rifles shortened and tactics changed, bayonets have faded. ---
**Author:** ![Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/marvin_the_martian/32/2898_2.png) [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvin_the_Martian)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-an-updated-boarding-ax-gun-work-properly/1007161/25 "2024-09-17T14:40:27Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > I would want to know more about the scenario. First, why do you need an alternate weapon? What kind of combat do you imagine shifting from quick rifle fire to an ax? Boarding required jumping from your ship onto the enemy ship, then cutting through the boarding netting to reach the deck. The ability to send a volley of pistol fire into the defenders just before jumping would be useful (a volley of grape shot would be even better but not always available). You’re sure not going to be able to stop and reload one of those things, and I how many axe swings you could take with a loaded weapon before the ball dislodges or the priming gets scattered. Having axes on the ship you are boarding would also be useful for cutting netting/ropes/cables as well as chopping open doors. If the Aubrey-Maturin novels are accurate, there were options for boarding weapons (cutlasses, axes, pikes) in the weapons chest to allow for personal preference. Not every seaman would have sword training. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-an-updated-boarding-ax-gun-work-properly/1007161/26 "2024-09-17T15:38:16Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > I would argue that if you get into close quarter combat, an ax is not the best tool. Big swings become obstacles in confined spaces. I guess the design of those axes allow thrusting as an option, sort of a clumsy spear. No disagreement. I was discussing the very limited scope _any_ sort of hybrid melee weapon would have, not just an axe, which, outside of fiction, would probably be my _last_ choice due to size and weight even for CQC. Seriously though, for us armchair armorers, countless military professionals across hundreds of years of modern metallic cartridge ammunition, with far more direct experience have looked into this. And they’ve pretty analyzed it as too little need, even for things where CQC is carefully trained. Again, in most cases if you’re stuck handling someone too close to shoot, it’s not better to whack them with something to kill them directly, but to make enough distance (very little) to shoot them. And of course, an ongoing review of ways to not have a long barrel sticking out ahead of you, leading to a proliferation of carbines, bullpup weapons, and bullpup carbines. Something you pointed out quite well: > [@Irishman](#): > > As tactics changed and cavalry faded, firearms shortened because pikes weren’t needed. Bayonets were still useful during the Civil War for charges on opposing forces. As combat rifles shortened and tactics changed, bayonets have faded. I still think of it as a fun scenario for various fictional stories, but not for real life (outside again of someone doing it for the lolz [novelty] or for semi-paranoid weapon concealment). Now, one thing I’d like to address is that the situations for militaries change! If we were suddenly faced by a race of alien, multiheaded snake creatures, that were very resistant to piercing trauma, then perhaps something like a modern hybrid would be evolved, a weapon to cut our enemies, but with a single [LeMat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LeMat_Revolver) style central high bore round that could be used in emergencies. 😉 [okay, I love the LeMat revolver as a concept (and it’s a different sort of compromise firearm) and wanted to mention it again] ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-an-updated-boarding-ax-gun-work-properly/1007161/27 "2024-09-17T18:35:50Z")
> [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](#): > > Having axes on the ship you are boarding would also be useful for cutting netting/ropes/cables as well as chopping open doors. I True, but those axes don’t look that effective as axes. But I’m probably wrong. Weapons that are used for any length of time evolve to fit the role. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2024, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-an-updated-boarding-ax-gun-work-properly/1007161/28 "2024-09-17T18:38:35Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#): > > [okay, I love the LeMat revolver as a concept (and it’s a different sort of compromise firearm) and wanted to mention it again] This compromise firearm was much used in my USAF era. We’ve come a long way baby: **[Wiki - M16A2 Rifle with M203 Grenade Launcher](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M203_grenade_launcher#/media/File:M16A2_Rifle_with_M203_Grenade_Launcher_(7414627064).jpg)** And continue progressing: **[Wiki - M4 Carbine with M203 Grenade Launcher](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M203_grenade_launcher#/media/File:M4_Carbine_with_M203_Grenade_Launcher_(7414626424).jpg)**. Never bring a 20ga to a 40mm fight. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2024, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-an-updated-boarding-ax-gun-work-properly/1007161/29 "2024-09-18T00:11:37Z")
> [@Kropotkin](#): > > Given my age and condition and general lack of training, the dual weapon I’d like is a cell phone that automatically dials 911 and can then be used as a hand grenade. I swear, I learned about the exploding Hamas pagers after I wrote this. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2024, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-an-updated-boarding-ax-gun-work-properly/1007161/30 "2024-09-18T01:13:40Z")
I was under the impression the M203 was slated to go away and be replaced by the standalone M320. However I was mistaken because the M320 can also be undermounted. It does look slightly more awkward with the additional forward grip. One thing I meant to mention in those boarding axes. The shape of the blade with that flare backward as well as foreward suggests it could also function as a hook to assist grappling and pulling aboard. Useful when jumping across a gap to land on netting trying to prevent clear access to the deck. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2024, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-an-updated-boarding-ax-gun-work-properly/1007161/31 "2024-09-18T03:02:36Z")
I was not familiar with the M320. It came after my era in the service. Thanks for the intro. It appears the foregrip folds back flush w the barrel. If so, I imagine it’d be folded down for standalone use and folded flush if attached to a rifle. Many pics here: > **[M320 Grenade Launcher Module](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M320_Grenade_Launcher_Module)** > > M320 Grenade Launcher Module (GLM) is the U.S. military's designation for a new single-shot 40 mm grenade launcher system to replace the M203 for the U.S. Army, while other services initially kept using the older M203. The M320 uses the same High-Low Propulsion System as the M203. > In 2004, the Army announced a requirement for a commercial off-the-shelf 40 mm grenade launcher. It had to be more reliable, ergonomic, accurate, and safer than the M203. It had to be able to fire all 40 mm low-veloc... ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2024, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-an-updated-boarding-ax-gun-work-properly/1007161/32 "2024-09-18T07:32:44Z")
Most combination firearms turn out to be not very good at doing either of the things they are ostensibly designed for. And we don’t board ships as a means of defeating them anymore. We stand off and pound them to pieces. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2024, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-an-updated-boarding-ax-gun-work-properly/1007161/33 "2024-09-18T14:01:23Z")
> [@Mk\_VII](#): > > And we don’t board ships as a means of defeating them anymore. We stand off and pound them to pieces. There are times we do. Think about it, the biggest amount of boarding was done by pirates - people trying to take the ship intact. Pirates are active in some regions, and take over shipping vessels with crew mostly alive. Special ops train for missions to rescue hostages, and ships are a part of that. The difference is that now we do it secretly instead of a frontal assault. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2024, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-an-updated-boarding-ax-gun-work-properly/1007161/34 "2024-09-18T18:21:09Z")
Gangsters sometimes carry Frankenweapons because they look cool [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/28/Apache_revolver.jpg/800px-Apache_revolver.jpg) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/28/Apache_revolver.jpg/800px-Apache_revolver.jpg) This is not the same as military requirements. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2024, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-an-updated-boarding-ax-gun-work-properly/1007161/35 "2024-09-18T19:33:10Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Modern firearms are good enough now that you don’t need a melee weapon; you just keep on firing at anything right next to you. Yep. Even in WW2 American GIs mostly used their bayonets to open cans. Mind you special forces still use a knife for up close quiet work. And soldiers like to carry one, even if not special forces- a good knife is not only a weapon but a tool. > [@TriPolar](#): > > Were they ever that great? Sure, a heavy musket could make a decent club, but wouldn’t the other guy likely carry a piece of tree branch just effective at clubbing as that musket? Muskets usually had a steel butt plate. They were very effective as clubs- and if you put a bayonet on, they became a decent spear. > [@gnoitall](#): > > Until you’re out of ammo, but modern combat tactics don’t seem to take that much into consideration The weight of a specialized melee weapon means you can carry that much less ammo. I’d rather have another 100 rounds than a battle axe. And of course an entrenching tool can make a decent weapon. > [@Irishman](#): > > As combat rifles shortened and tactics changed, bayonets have faded. Yeah, my Dad said that actual combat GIs got a big laugh during a talk when some non combat general was saying the army needed really long bayonets. > [@DPRK](#): > > Gangsters sometimes carry Frankenweapons because they look cool Yeah, a hundred+ years ago. Some modern gangster would laugh their ass off. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2024, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-an-updated-boarding-ax-gun-work-properly/1007161/36 "2024-09-18T21:09:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Muskets usually had a steel butt plate. They were very effective as clubs- and if you put a bayonet on, they became a decent spear. A tree branch can be at least as effective as a musket as a club, especially if you add a bayonet to the tree branch. The tree branch an be longer than the musket with or without bayonet making it a better spear as well. Guns that don’t go bang aren’t very good weapons. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-an-updated-boarding-ax-gun-work-properly/1007161/37 "2024-09-19T00:08:08Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > A tree branch can be at least as effective as a musket as a club, especially if you add a bayonet to the tree branch. The tree branch an be longer than the musket with or without bayonet making it a better spear as well. Guns that don’t go bang aren’t very good weapons. A tree branch doesn’t have a steel barrel or a metal buttplate, making it less solid and lighter. Might make it slightly easier to swing, but not nearly the impact. If a tree branch is longer than a musket, it will be too unwieldy too be an effective club. Tree branches tend to have forks and bends, especially when longer than a musket, unless they are from a big tree, which makes the branch too big to hold. Random tree branches aren’t very good spears even with a bayonet. Plus, bayonets are designed to attach to muskets, not tree branches. Muskets aren’t supposed to be clubs, but they can be as effective as a tree limb. Muskets with bayonets were intended to replace pikes. Pikes are pretty long. Early Muskets were fairly long, but not as good at being pikes as a pike. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-an-updated-boarding-ax-gun-work-properly/1007161/38 "2024-09-19T01:18:59Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > A tree branch can be at least as effective as a musket as a club, especially if you add a bayonet to the tree branch. Tree branches arent make of hand picked quality wood, polished, with a steel but plate. You bog standard tree branch will break first hit. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-an-updated-boarding-ax-gun-work-properly/1007161/39 "2024-09-19T02:25:48Z")
I still don’t get why you would insist on clubbing the enemy instead of using a sawn-off shotgun or PDW. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-an-updated-boarding-ax-gun-work-properly/1007161/40 "2024-09-19T04:27:24Z")
Back in the day, Government leaders actually thought that if you gave the soldiers a higher rate of fire (RoF) or more ammo, they would just waste it. So line soldiers ran out of ammo more than should have occured. See Islandalwa as a perfect example. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-an-updated-boarding-ax-gun-work-properly/1007161.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-an-updated-boarding-ax-gun-work-properly/1007161.md?page=3)