# Would anyone actually support war to stop secession? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 10, 2016, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336 "2016-11-10T08:04:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![greenmario](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/97f17d/32.png) [@greenmario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenmario)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/21 "2016-11-10T19:07:12Z")
> **[California Election Results 2016: President Live Map by County, Real-Time...](https://www.politico.com/2016-election/results/map/president/california/)** > > POLITICO's Live 2016 California Election Results and Maps by State, County and District. Includes 2016 Races for President, Senate, House, Governor and Key Ballot Measures. Like many have pointed out, only 2/3 of California wouild be OK with secession and that’s being generous. What would happen is that after California gets a majority vote to leave, Northern California will then vote to secede from California and rejoin the USA. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/22 "2016-11-10T19:10:30Z")
I used to joke that the states who always wanted to leave were the ones that received more in Federal monies than they contributed. A net drain if you will on the national resources. That being the case, on very little thought, my response was let them go. Enjoy life without the rest of us holding you up. Clearly not the case with California. What a mess that would make. I don’t know if (I can’t believe I’m writing this) the East Coast elite realize how irritating it is to live in CA and be so centrally important to the country’s economy and to be so ignored politically. CA is like dad’s wallet, ignored unless people want something. Truthfully, in many respects, CA already operates like its own nation. Lately, they’ve been doing it better too. In return, they are mocked by the rest of the nation, and allowed to contribute nothing to the national dialogue at election time. Hey, they’re “in the bag.” I can see why the residents might feel as though they didn’t need the US. The US needs them. There is also a healthy dose of htat populist “Washington doesn’t give a shit about us” thrown in. Right now it’s just people letting off steam. With the wrong handling, I could see it building momentum amongst all groups, red or blue. **Pantastic** is right, though. It would have to be negotiated, if it happened at all. I can’t really see the US letting CA go, however. It’s too critical to the US. Long-winded answer to the question: I think the US government would, in almost all cases, choose war over letting secession happen. I don’t know how much popular support such a conflict would get, however. I’m not sure the national will is there to make it happen. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/23 "2016-11-10T19:21:47Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Oh, and the water in the Colorado River is property of the U.S.A… It runs down into Mexico before reaching the ocean. Over the years, we have done a lot of harm to that area’s ecology with this attitude. Lately we’re letting more water through and the area is starting to recover. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/24 "2016-11-10T20:05:48Z")
> [@Duke\_of\_Rat](#): > > We are talking about changing countries, not gerrymandering some districts. What is your point? ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/25 "2016-11-10T20:14:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I’d support the right of any State to petition Congress to leave the Union, and if Congress agrees, so be it. > > California would do just fine as a nation. > > I do not support any State trying to do so _unilaterally_. … well, maybe Texas if they leave Austin behind…😛 Ooh, another lover of cute little Austin! Which was lovely before runaway growth destroyed much of its charm–& gentrification is definitely turning it whiter. But I still have friends & family there. [The _Texas Observer_ reports:](https://www.texasobserver.org/what-trump-means-for-texas/) > [@](#): > > With the exception of Tarrant County, Texas’ urban counties are tilting Democratic. Clinton performed better than Obama in Dallas County, Travis County, El Paso County, Bexar County and Harris County.\*\* But the banner result was definitely Clinton beating Trump by 12 percentage points in Harris. \*\*Not only is Harris County Texas’ biggest urban area, it’s now 70 percent non-white. Yet Democrats have struggled to realize their sizable demographic advantage. In 2008, Obama put up just a two-point lead over McCain in Harris County. In 2012, he beat Romney by fewer than 1,000 votes. In past county races, Democratic candidates consistently lost to Republicans, leaving the GOP in control of the county’s voting rolls, for example… > > It’s too early to explain why things shook out the way they did in Houston, but it seems almost certain that Latino turnout played a part. The _Houston Chronicle_ reports that 17 percent of in-person early voters in Harris County have a Spanish surname, compared to 11 percent in 2012. > > If such gains are real and durable, Democrats have a shot at locking down Houston, as they did in Dallas County several cycles ago. With a fast-growing population of 4.5 million, Harris County offers the prospect of an anchor for a truly competitive statewide Democratic Party. At least that’s the idea…. (Tarrant County is Fort Worth, Travis is Austin, Bexar is San Antonio & Harris is Houston. (Hi, Clothalump!)) Only the tiniest idiot fringe of Texans favors secession… ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/26 "2016-11-10T20:21:36Z")
No one is going to attempt to secede. It’s a stupid conversation. If they did attempt, against the will of the US, yes, I’d support armed force to keep the union together. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/27 "2016-11-10T20:25:52Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > What is your point? I don’t want to live in The Republic of Texas, I want to live in The United States of America. If The State of Texas wanted to re-align my voting district, I might grumble a bit, but I’d go along without a fuss. If some idiots decide that it’d be a good idea to make the land I own a part of a different country, I’d not go along so willingly. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/28 "2016-11-10T21:28:16Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > I haven’t found a detailed US map of this election, but this one shows [how the Texas counties voted](http://www.chron.com/news/politics/article/Results-How-Texas-counties-voted-in-the-2016-10599526.php). > > As usual, most cities voted for Hillary: Houston, Dallas, Austin, San Antonio & El Paso. There are also huge swathes of Blue along the border; a better map would show population density–those counties are pretty sparsely populated. > > Secession won’t work because the Electoral College map only works for Electoral votes. Even groovy California isn’t totally Blue. (Besides, where would the state get its water? ) Who is to say the Republic of Texas wouldn’t allow subsequent secession of the city-states? Or some sort of increased autonomy? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/29 "2016-11-10T21:29:59Z")
> [@Duke\_of\_Rat](#): > > I don’t want to live in The Republic of Texas, I want to live in The United States of America. If The State of Texas wanted to re-align my voting district, I might grumble a bit, but I’d go along without a fuss. If some idiots decide that it’d be a good idea to make the land I own a part of a different country, I’d not go along so willingly. But you would keep your neighbor in “your” country against his will? Texas could allow you to secede, or the city you live in could secede. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/30 "2016-11-10T21:32:37Z")
These days no war is necessary to foil secessionists. You just tie them up in legislatures and the courts until their anger dies down and they either forget what they wanted to secede for or get concessions. Staten Islanders have threatened at times to secede from New York City (and actually voted to do so about 20 years ago, but were foiled by state and city political maneuvering). Curiously, the secession movement there [recently had a revival](http://cityandstateny.com/articles/the-future-of-the-boroughs-staten-island/the-stexit-could-staten-island-secede-from-new-york-city/). I just can’t see California secessionists taking up arms to secede in order to preserve their rights to gun control. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/31 "2016-11-10T21:41:13Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’m sure the movement for California to secede is just people expressing their rage and frustration, but if a state or group of states did decide they wanted to leave our federation, would anyone really support going to war to stop it? I realize that the Civil War set a precedent that states cannot actually leave the Union, but we have a ton more to lose now. What happened to Atlanta would happen in 100 US cities. > > So the subject for debate is, is the Civil War precedent a legal theory or it is really backed by the threat of force in 2016? and would American families really be willing to send their sons and daughters to conquer California and force it to stay in the union? To answer one of your questions, no, the Civil War did not set a legal precedent. Texas v. White did. So did the Dred Scott Decision. People were a little bit nuttier back then and a lot more violent. I favor secession in nearly any scenario, but it doesn’t have to be the solution. The US government could embrace federalism more fully and grant more autonomy to the states and people wouldn’t have to have a hissy fit over a presidential election. The president could simply be a guy or gal who is the executive in a government that limits itself to the enumerated powers of the constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/32 "2016-11-10T21:42:27Z")
> [@Duke\_of\_Rat](#): > > I don’t want to live in The Republic of Texas, I want to live in The United States of America. If The State of Texas wanted to re-align my voting district, I might grumble a bit, but I’d go along without a fuss. If some idiots decide that it’d be a good idea to make the land I own a part of a different country, I’d not go along so willingly. So you get compensated for your land and move to the new-look USA. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/33 "2016-11-10T21:45:39Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > I’m not gonna lie, I fear this a little more than I fear the Texit from a few years back; Putin once had some “scholar” go on RT and [show what the continental US](https://www.rt.com/politics/panarin-usa-collapse-economy-905/) would look like in decades to come: broken up into several independent nations. How do we know that Trump won’t “make a deal” to give Russia back Alaska? I mean I know its far fetched, but that was one of the reasons I voted Hillary. > > I would go to war to protect our nation against a literal national suicide. W/O California, this country’s economy goes to shit anyway and we can’t eat. Our consumption is not limited by borders unless the government decides to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/34 "2016-11-10T21:57:16Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Who is to say the Republic of Texas wouldn’t allow subsequent secession of the city-states? Or some sort of increased autonomy? Hey, our local Confederate Apologist is here! Even most of the Republicans here realize that Texas can’t secede. We’v got lots of military/air/naval bases, for one thing. Then there’s NASA. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/35 "2016-11-10T22:02:57Z")
Wait, the argument against secession, is that it would be tied up in the courts and require votes, etc. to get something like that done, but we have members that believe that the POTUS alone has the authority to hand a state over to the Russians, and this was one of the primary fears that caused them to vote for Hillary? Got it! ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/36 "2016-11-10T22:12:34Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Hey, our local Confederate Apologist is here! > > Even most of the Republicans here realize that Texas can’t secede. We’v got lots of military/air/naval bases, for one thing. Then there’s NASA. Smear terms are cool. Everyone is doing them on the internets. Define “can’t”. Oh the us govt won’t allow it. The creativity of statists is inspiring. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/37 "2016-11-10T22:59:47Z")
I’d support a war against a unilateral secession, for most of the reasons mentioned. The big one is what happens to the US military installations, personnel, and materiel in the seceding states. On the other hand, I’m not opposed to a slow and careful dissolution of the US. If Texas or California want to secede, and the rest of the country wants them gone, too, then let’s figure it out. There are problems to be solved, but they might not be as problematic as the long-term consequences of staying together. I don’t think we’re anywhere near that point yet. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/38 "2016-11-10T23:11:50Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Hey, our local Confederate Apologist is here! > > Even most of the Republicans here realize that Texas can’t secede. We’v got lots of military/air/naval bases, for one thing. Then there’s NASA. Bam. Warning. Do not insult other posters. You should know better than that. ---
**Author:** ![GulfTiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e79b87/32.png) [@GulfTiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GulfTiger)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/39 "2016-11-10T23:46:37Z")
If California wants to leave, I would ask, “How can we help?” ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/40 "2016-11-10T23:49:42Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > Federal troops stationed in California and Texas nukes. They’d either be invaded at inception or not have any nukes if they managed to negotiate their way out. I would think any competent secessionist overthrow would require convincing the local military forces to be on their side (or it would be the military’s idea in the first place), or secessionist forces would take them over directly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336.md?page=3)