# Would anyone actually support war to stop secession? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 10, 2016, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336 "2016-11-10T08:04:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/41 "2016-11-10T23:59:48Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > I would think any competent secessionist overthrow would require convincing the local military forces to be on their side (or it would be the military’s idea in the first place), or secessionist forces would take them over directly. I’m quite certain that the vast majority of military folks stationed in California, when given the choice between living in an independent California or a newer, better, stronger, great-again, California-free USA will choose the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/42 "2016-11-11T01:41:18Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m quite certain that the vast majority of military folks stationed in California, when given the choice between living in an independent California or a newer, better, stronger, great-again, California-free USA will choose the latter. Comments like this one, and numerous others in this thread, are exactly why some folks in California might feel like they aren’t wanted or valued. -Calfornia is the 6th largest economy in the world. [cite](http://www.businessinsider.com/california-gdp-crushes-everyone-2016-6) -California is the #1 contributor of federal tax revenue [cite](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_tax_revenue_by_state) -California is the leading state in the country for cash farm receipts. It produces, among many other things, 1/3 of the US’s vegetables, and 2/3 of the US’s fruits and nuts. [cite](https://www.cdfa.ca.gov/statistics/) -California leads the world in a number of measures for intellectual property development (including being home to Silicon Valley, top universities, and leading patent development). (The cites start getting convoluted - if you want them, I’ll put them in). The point is, I don’t get the hate. It’s a beautiful place and it’s more than doing its share for the country. You want it gone why - because it’s “liberal”? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/43 "2016-11-11T03:50:11Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > I don’t know if (I can’t believe I’m writing this) the East Coast elite realize how irritating it is to live in CA and be so centrally important to the country’s economy and to be so ignored politically. Let us just say we are a very diverse state. I am informed, I vote and I RELISH being ignored politically. I’ve seen virtually no Presidential campaign adds at all. Sheer bliss :). ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/44 "2016-11-11T06:16:51Z")
True - can’t complain about the ads. Having just moved from CA (my kids were 5th generation Californians before we yanked them off to OR), let me ask you this: how happy are you that the presidential candidates are already decided by the time the primaries roll around? Largest block of voters in the country, no say in the candidate. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/45 "2016-11-11T06:20:23Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Smear terms are cool. Everyone is doing them on the internets. > > Define “can’t”. Oh the us govt won’t allow it. The creativity of statists is inspiring. [So, I looked up “statist.”](http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/statism.html) > [@](#): > > A statist system—whether of a communist, fascist, Nazi, socialist or “welfare” type—is based on the . . . government’s unlimited power, which means: on the rule of brute force. The differences among statist systems are only a matter of time and degree; the principle is the same. Under statism, the government is not a policeman, but a legalized criminal that holds the power to use physical force in any manner and for any purpose it pleases against legally disarmed, defenseless victims. > > Nothing can ever justify so monstrously evil a theory. Nothing can justify the horror, the brutality, the plunder, the destruction, the starvation, the slave-labor camps, the torture chambers, the wholesale slaughter of statist dictatorships. Sounds pretty dreadful. Should I complain about the insult? No, I can’t take _The Objectivist Newletter_ seriously. I meant that most Texans know enough about how things actually work here to realize that Secession is a silly idea. They might vote Republican but there _are_ limits… ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/46 "2016-11-11T06:37:16Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > If a state is allowed to secede like that, then Washington is telling you that US citizenship has no meaning and offers no protection of your rights, that if your neighbors manage to scrounge up a 51% majority against you you’re just screwed … What does “like that” mean? Like what? No actual details are being offered. I presume that both citizenship in the new nation and US citizenship would be offered as a legacy birthright, and many other details would be worked out in an extended negotiation. Exactly these questions arose in Canada over Quebec, where talk of secession is a cultural pastime along with hockey, lacrosse, and hating the English. Two referendums were held on the matter, and though both failed to support secession, it was eventually established that a majority vote in favor would be regarded as a mandate to negotiate peaceful separation in what would probably end up being a close economic-political relationship similar to the EU and the Schengen area. I think it would be a terrible decision, though, and most likely so would any state’s secession from the US, but I don’t see why talk immediately has to turn to violence if the majority of the state’s citizens are in favor. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/47 "2016-11-11T07:41:38Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’m sure the movement for California to secede is just people expressing their rage and frustration, but if a state or group of states did decide they wanted to leave our federation, would anyone really support going to war to stop it? I realize that the Civil War set a precedent that states cannot actually leave the Union, but we have a ton more to lose now. What happened to Atlanta would happen in 100 US cities. > > So the subject for debate is, is the Civil War precedent a legal theory or it is really backed by the threat of force in 2016? and would American families really be willing to send their sons and daughters to conquer California and force it to stay in the union? Yeah. Secession was not an option for the Union in the 1860s and it’s not an option now. If people move to secede they need to be crushed like the South was. I have no tolerance for secessionist movements. Losing the Union is worse than crushing a secessionist movement. And noone actually wants to take up arms to leave. So it’s not happening. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/48 "2016-11-11T07:42:42Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I don’t think it’s national suicide at all, just changing the terms of how we live together. We don’t live in a unitary nation now, we live in a federation where sovereignty is shared by a federal government and the states. Changing that to say, a common market instead, with total self-government by the individual states, would not destroy America. It would just make us a better functioning EU. > > A lesson from the Civil War which we should take to heart is that if we do go to war to preserve the union again, that we will not live to see the day when things are good again. The resentments and scars would last the rest of our lifetimes and probably also our childrens’ and our grandchildrens’ lifetimes. Our lives and the lives of our kids would be over as we know them. We’d be doing this for the people of 2100, all we’d get out of it is death, poverty, and hate. IT would destroy the nation. Because the secessionist movements wouldn’t stop and eventually the former US would be as nutty as pre WWI Europe. Who wants that? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/49 "2016-11-11T10:31:13Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Yeah. Secession was not an option for the Union in the 1860s and it’s not an option now. If people move to secede they need to be crushed like the South was. I have no tolerance for secessionist movements. Losing the Union is worse than crushing a secessionist movement. And noone actually wants to take up arms to leave. So it’s not happening. Why is “losing the Union” worse than immense bloodshed? I think the point of the thread was to go beyond assertion. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/50 "2016-11-11T10:38:39Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > IT would destroy the nation. Because the secessionist movements wouldn’t stop and eventually the former US would be as nutty as pre WWI Europe. Who wants that? Yes we wouldn’t want to be the cultural, economic, and intellectual capital of the world now. That’s nutty. A politically decentralized Europe helped to usher in nutty things like the Renaissance, scientific discovery, and capitalism. It was when nationalism swept Europe that a centralizing impulse led to problems. I guess you were opposed to the relatively peaceful breakup of the Soviet Union. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/51 "2016-11-11T11:26:02Z")
Even if what octopus says is right, military force is only worth using if it can intimidate the seceding state into giving up with little bloodshed. An all out fight would set our country back further than just letting a split happen. After all, a split can always lead back to union when conditions change. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/52 "2016-11-11T13:15:12Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Why is “losing the Union” worse than immense bloodshed? I think the point of the thread was to go beyond assertion. There is, realistically, no likelihood of secession in 21st century America, despite a few Tweets. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/53 "2016-11-11T13:39:30Z")
Russia and China can do pretty much whatever they want right up to causing the US to use nukes, and the US doesn’t need California in order to use nukes, and California’s opinion on the matter doesn’t mean a flying fuck all to DC. Only difference is all the red states that want to “bomb the hell out of” whatever they don’t like will have to suck it up and pay for it themselves. Oh, and I believe there is a lot of weapons & rocket technology developed in California, so yeah, y’all will still be our friends. Is it going to happen anytime soon? No, but this thinking that goes “let’s declare war and bomb the hell out of” is precisely the type of attitude California is sick of, and sick of paying for. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/54 "2016-11-11T14:52:24Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m quite certain that the vast majority of military folks stationed in California, when given the choice between living in an independent California or a newer, better, stronger, great-again, California-free USA will choose the latter. I am having a hard time seeing any way in which a California-free USA would be “better” or “stronger.” In fact, given California’s outsized financial, cultural and intellectual contribution to the nation, it’s effectively impossible. But an independent California would be much worse off too. ---
**Author:** ![NetTrekker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nettrekker/32/2909_2.png) [@NetTrekker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NetTrekker)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/55 "2016-11-11T15:15:20Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > No one is going to attempt to secede. It’s a stupid conversation. > > If they did attempt, against the will of the US, yes, I’d support armed force to keep the union together. There will be a referendum on the 2018 California ballot. That is at least the beginning of an “attempt to secede”. It’s no joke and it will be interesting to see how they vote. And no, there won’t be another “Civil War”. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/56 "2016-11-11T15:29:25Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > There is, realistically, no likelihood of secession in 21st century America, despite a few Tweets. That’s a bold statement considering we’re only a few years into the century. Also, I’m not sure how that is a response to my question. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/57 "2016-11-11T17:10:42Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Why is “losing the Union” worse than immense bloodshed? I think the point of the thread was to go beyond assertion. Well since opinions are unprovable and I know this board and the people on it sometimes have a hard time accepting factual stuff, I don’t know how much time I want to spend on a fruitless endeavor. It’s worth it to me to keep the union together. I am extremely anti-secessionist and I believe force should be used to prevent it and to send the message that treasonous attitudes will be dealt with. I don’t 1421 micro states where the USA once was. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Yes we wouldn’t want to be the cultural, economic, and intellectual capital of the world now. That’s nutty. > > A politically decentralized Europe helped to usher in nutty things like the Renaissance, scientific discovery, and capitalism. It was when nationalism swept Europe that a centralizing impulse led to problems. I guess you were opposed to the relatively peaceful breakup of the Soviet Union. Yeah and a politically decentralized Europe had many wars. Crack open a history book. Napoleon, WWI, WWII, many minor wars, and colonial competition are waiting for you. But yes, the statue of David is nice. And I wasn’t a fan of the breakup of USSR. I thought it would lead to competition between the former republics and warfare. Ukraine says “hi!” If the USA were not so overwhelmingly dominant we’d probably be seeing the Baltic states partitioned as we type. We also have bases in former Soviet Territory. Red State America won’t take kindly to China setting up air bases in the Nation of Hawaii or some nonsense like that. > [@adaher](#): > > Even if what octopus says is right, military force is only worth using if it can intimidate the seceding state into giving up with little bloodshed. An all out fight would set our country back further than just letting a split happen. After all, a split can always lead back to union when conditions change. Nope. Can’t reward petulance like that. If they don’t want to be in the USA a plane ticket is cheaper than rebuilding San Fran and LA. > [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > There is, realistically, no likelihood of secession in 21st century America, despite a few Tweets. This > [@NetTrekker](#): > > There will be a referendum on the 2018 California ballot. That is at least the beginning of an “attempt to secede”. It’s no joke and it will be interesting to see how they vote. And no, there won’t be another “Civil War”. Resurrect Sherman. California didn’t learn from the South’s lesson? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/58 "2016-11-11T18:09:11Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Resurrect Sherman. California didn’t learn from the South’s lesson? What are you talking about? If CA gets permission from congress to leave the Union, why would there be war? ---
**Author:** ![NetTrekker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nettrekker/32/2909_2.png) [@NetTrekker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NetTrekker)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/59 "2016-11-11T18:41:15Z")
[http://www.yescalifornia.org/independence\_day\_statement](http://www.yescalifornia.org/independence_day_statement) Excerpted: “If it is demonstrated via honest referendum that the political aspirations of the people of California include independence from the authority, jurisdiction, and influence of the United States Government, then the United States of America must, in accordance with their treaty obligations under the United Nations Charter, “take due account” of that, and not only allow us to develop the self-government that is the cornerstone of the American Revolutionary War and the Charter of the United Nations, but they must even assist us in the progressive development of the free political institutions that are conducive of the type of self-government to which we are entitled as a free people.” ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/60 "2016-11-11T18:55:46Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > What are you talking about? If CA gets permission from congress to leave the Union, why would there be war? Which congress? The California State Legislature or the U.S. Congress? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336.md?page=4)