# Would anyone actually support war to stop secession? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 10, 2016, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336 "2016-11-10T08:04:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/61 "2016-11-11T18:58:52Z")
The US Congress, obviously. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/62 "2016-11-11T19:25:14Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > No one is going to attempt to secede. It’s a stupid conversation. > > If they did attempt, against the will of the US, yes, I’d support armed force to keep the union together. Hawaii might and given how they became a part of the US they should be allowed to be an independent kingdom. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/63 "2016-11-11T19:54:18Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > True - can’t complain about the ads. Having just moved from CA (my kids were 5th generation Californians before we yanked them off to OR), let me ask you this: how happy are you that the presidential candidates are already decided by the time the primaries roll around? Largest block of voters in the country, no say in the candidate. I have a very jaundiced view of the political process in general and the sort of people that run for high office in particular. It comes from being a child of political activists I think - somehow that experience has turned me into a slightly sour pragmatist ;). I have never been enthused about any political candidate for president and never expect to be in my lifetime. So really it bothers me very, very little - they are all compromise candidates for me. Also I prefer to watch my sporting events at an earlier hour :p. That is not to rain on any other West Coaster’s disappointment though. I totally get and sympathize with the frustration of others who feel they never really get a full say in the process. It just doesn’t particularly bother special little snowflake me. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/64 "2016-11-11T20:56:11Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > What are you talking about? If CA gets permission from congress to leave the Union, why would there be war? Because they aren’t ever getting that permission. They could only leave via superior force. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/65 "2016-11-11T21:00:37Z")
> [@NetTrekker](#): > > [http://www.yescalifornia.org/independence\_day\_statement](http://www.yescalifornia.org/independence_day_statement) > > Excerpted: > > “If it is demonstrated via honest referendum that the political aspirations of the people of California include independence from the authority, jurisdiction, and influence of the United States Government, then the United States of America must, in accordance with their treaty obligations under the United Nations Charter, “take due account” of that, and not only allow us to develop the self-government that is the cornerstone of the American Revolutionary War and the Charter of the United Nations, but they must even assist us in the progressive development of the free political institutions that are conducive of the type of self-government to which we are entitled as a free people.” And when conservative California wants to split from liberal California what happens then? The whole idea of secession is a crackpot idea only supported by fools. And a war to rid the nation of fools might not be terrible. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/66 "2016-11-11T21:35:50Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Because they aren’t ever getting that permission. They could only leave via superior force. Countries have divided peacefully before. I’ll grant that it’s not the norm, but given how much time the US spends running around the world defending democracy and self-determination we’d be pretty hypocritical if we didn’t at least consider the idea at home. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/67 "2016-11-11T21:54:52Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > And when conservative California wants to split from liberal California what happens then? The whole idea of secession is a crackpot idea only supported by fools. And a war to rid the nation of fools might not be terrible. Probably depends which CA conservatives you’re talking about. You’ve got your wealthy conservatives, and you’ve got your cowboys up and down the eastern half. I doubt the eastern half has the numbers, and your wealthy conservatives are spread out along the coast, surrounded by much less wealthy people. What, Coronado Island secedes? Wealthy conservative California doesn’t really have much of a geographical area to take with them, and someone has to mow their lawns, watch their kids and clean their pools. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/68 "2016-11-11T21:57:06Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Countries have divided peacefully before. I’ll grant that it’s not the norm, but given how much time the US spends running around the world defending democracy and self-determination we’d be pretty hypocritical if we didn’t at least consider the idea at home. We’re generally NOT supportive of efforts to split up in countries _we are aligned with._ I would assume that we are aligned with ourselves. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/69 "2016-11-11T22:02:24Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > We’re generally NOT supportive of efforts to split up in countries _we are aligned with._ I would assume that we are aligned with ourselves. 🙂 Countries we are aligned with, by and large, are democracies. And democracies usually don’t break up. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/70 "2016-11-11T22:19:13Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Because they aren’t ever getting that permission… Sez who? You dont think the GOP wouldnt love to see CA gone? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/71 "2016-11-11T22:23:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I would assume that we are aligned with ourselves. 🙂 These days, that’s become debatable 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/72 "2016-11-11T22:30:08Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Which congress? The California State Legislature or the U.S. Congress? California doesn’t have a congress. It has the [California State Legislature](http://www.legislature.ca.gov). ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2016, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/73 "2016-11-12T00:18:05Z")
There’s secession, and there’s _secession._ Anybody can plant a flag on a piece of land and claim they’re now an independent nation. The tricky part is getting the rest of the world to agree with you. Currently, there’s dozens of breakaway states around the world – Abkhazia, Northern Cyprus, Somaliland, South Ossetia, Transnistria, etc. – who have successfully achieved _de facto_ autonomy even though they’re not recognized as independent nations. But these places are so small and remote that few people even know they exist, let alone care. Then you’ve got Taiwan, which for unique diplomatic reasons is still “officially” treated as part of China, but in all other matters, for all intents and purposes may as well be independent. “Brexit” was possible only because the EU charter does allow member states to secede if they really want to. (And has happened at least once, with Norway.) No such proviso exists within the U.S. Constitution – once you’re in, you’re in, and if it turns out you don’t like it, too bad so sad, sucks to be you. So forget about any peaceful separation, ain’t gonna happen. And if military force were involved – dream on, the rest of America would crush us. It’s what America does best, man. ---
**Author:** ![NetTrekker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nettrekker/32/2909_2.png) [@NetTrekker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NetTrekker)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2016, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/74 "2016-11-12T02:16:31Z")
How California Can Legally Secede from the Union [http://www.yescalifornia.org/how\_california\_can\_legally\_secede\_from\_the\_union](http://www.yescalifornia.org/how_california_can_legally_secede_from_the_union) I would imagine the Ex-Cal U.S.’ main objection would be losing access to the Pacific coast for shipping/trade & defense purposes. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2016, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/75 "2016-11-12T12:42:28Z")
> [@NetTrekker](#): > > How California Can Legally Secede from the Union > > [http://www.yescalifornia.org/how\_california\_can\_legally\_secede\_from\_the\_union](http://www.yescalifornia.org/how_california_can_legally_secede_from_the_union) Oh, sure, in some fantasy world, if both houses of Congress said to California, “Go in peace with our blessing,” it wouldn’t be any problem it all. But there’s less chance of that happening than the IUPAC agreeing to name Element 118 after Lemmy of Motörhead. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2016, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/76 "2016-11-12T15:12:33Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > What does “like that” mean? Like what? No actual details are being offered. Simple 51% vote, no history of being an independent nation (and no Texas, ten years as an independent country isn’t ‘a history’), no large cultural divide (like speaking a different language), no approval by US congress. If there’s Congressional approval then there’s zero chance of war to stop secession, so the question in the OP doesn’t make any sense. > [@](#): > > Exactly these questions arose in Canada over Quebec, where talk of secession is a cultural pastime along with hockey, lacrosse, and hating the English. Quebec has a vastly different cultural background (founded by France rather than the UK), they speak a different language and use a different legal system. They were part of France until 1763, then under UK control but not merged with Northern Canada until 1840, and still retained a distinct cultural and legal identity. Quebec secession is not simply ‘51% of voters don’t like this election or this legal decision’. > [@](#): > > I think it would be a terrible decision, though, and most likely so would any state’s secession from the US, but I don’t see why talk immediately has to turn to violence if the majority of the state’s citizens are in favor. Because the 49% of the states citizens who don’t vote for it are US citizens who’s rights as citizens are about to go away and who’s homes are about to be taken by a foreign country. That’s a pretty big reason right off the bat. The consider that such secession means ‘well, if 51% of the people in this area want to go they can just go, and being a US citizen means your neighbors can decide to remove your protection as a citizen if 51% of them agree’ and it’s very unlikely that the US would remain a coherent country for very long after. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2016, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/77 "2016-11-12T15:37:48Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Because the 49% of the states citizens who don’t vote for it are US citizens who’s rights as citizens are about to go away and who’s homes are about to be taken by a foreign country. What do you mean, “taken by a foreign country”? They will still own their land and pay taxes, just with a different name on the check. Keep in mind that most of the laws in this country are state-specific, vis-a-vis gun control, education, environmental regulations, local tax codes, law enforcement, transportation management, legality of marijuana, etc. Changing sovereignty from one nation to another will not change any of that. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2016, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/78 "2016-11-12T15:50:30Z")
For historical reference - > [@NetTrekker](#): > > There will be a referendum on the 2018 California ballot. That is at least the beginning of an “attempt to secede”. It’s no joke and it will be interesting to see how they vote. And no, there won’t be another “Civil War”. For historical reference - > [@octopus](#): > > …Resurrect Sherman. California didn’t learn from the South’s lesson? (post shortened) For historical reference - > [@DrDeth](#): > > What are you talking about? If CA gets permission from congress to leave the Union, why would there be war? > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The US Congress, obviously. Since the conversation was about a (possible) referendum on the 2018 California ballot, it wasn’t obvious. Much better now though. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2016, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/79 "2016-11-12T16:04:19Z")
for historical reference - > [@doorhinge](#): > > Which congress? The California State Legislature or the U.S. Congress? (underline added) > [@Monty](#): > > California doesn’t have a congress. It has the [California State Legislature](http://www.legislature.ca.gov). What’s the difference between “congress” and “Congress”? :rolleyes: \*congress noun [C] us ​ /ˈkɑŋ·ɡrəs/ a formal meeting of representatives from countries or organizations at which ideas are discussed and information is exchanged: -the fourth congress of the European Association for Lexicography\* vs \*Congress noun [U] us ​ /ˈkɑŋ·ɡrəs/ ​ politics & government the elected group of people in the US who are responsible for making the law, consisting of the Senate and the House of Representatives: -Congress has rejected the president’s plan.\* > **[congress](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/congress)** > > 1. a large formal meeting of representatives from countries or societies at… ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2016, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336/80 "2016-11-12T17:28:36Z")
You answered your own question, dh. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-anyone-actually-support-war-to-stop-secession/771336.md?page=5)