I’m quite certain that the vast majority of military folks stationed in California, when given the choice between living in an independent California or a newer, better, stronger, great-again, California-free USA will choose the latter.
Comments like this one, and numerous others in this thread, are exactly why some folks in California might feel like they aren’t wanted or valued.
-Calfornia is the 6th largest economy in the world. cite
-California is the #1 contributor of federal tax revenue cite
-California is the leading state in the country for cash farm receipts. It produces, among many other things, 1/3 of the US’s vegetables, and 2/3 of the US’s fruits and nuts. cite
-California leads the world in a number of measures for intellectual property development (including being home to Silicon Valley, top universities, and leading patent development). (The cites start getting convoluted - if you want them, I’ll put them in).
The point is, I don’t get the hate. It’s a beautiful place and it’s more than doing its share for the country. You want it gone why - because it’s “liberal”?
Let us just say we are a very diverse state. I am informed, I vote and I RELISH being ignored politically. I’ve seen virtually no Presidential campaign adds at all. Sheer bliss :).
True - can’t complain about the ads. Having just moved from CA (my kids were 5th generation Californians before we yanked them off to OR), let me ask you this: how happy are you that the presidential candidates are already decided by the time the primaries roll around? Largest block of voters in the country, no say in the candidate.
Sounds pretty dreadful. Should I complain about the insult? No, I can’t take The Objectivist Newletter seriously.
I meant that most Texans know enough about how things actually work here to realize that Secession is a silly idea. They might vote Republican but there are limits…
What does “like that” mean? Like what? No actual details are being offered. I presume that both citizenship in the new nation and US citizenship would be offered as a legacy birthright, and many other details would be worked out in an extended negotiation.
Exactly these questions arose in Canada over Quebec, where talk of secession is a cultural pastime along with hockey, lacrosse, and hating the English. Two referendums were held on the matter, and though both failed to support secession, it was eventually established that a majority vote in favor would be regarded as a mandate to negotiate peaceful separation in what would probably end up being a close economic-political relationship similar to the EU and the Schengen area. I think it would be a terrible decision, though, and most likely so would any state’s secession from the US, but I don’t see why talk immediately has to turn to violence if the majority of the state’s citizens are in favor.
Yeah. Secession was not an option for the Union in the 1860s and it’s not an option now. If people move to secede they need to be crushed like the South was. I have no tolerance for secessionist movements. Losing the Union is worse than crushing a secessionist movement. And noone actually wants to take up arms to leave. So it’s not happening.
IT would destroy the nation. Because the secessionist movements wouldn’t stop and eventually the former US would be as nutty as pre WWI Europe. Who wants that?
Why is “losing the Union” worse than immense bloodshed? I think the point of the thread was to go beyond assertion.
Yes we wouldn’t want to be the cultural, economic, and intellectual capital of the world now. That’s nutty.
A politically decentralized Europe helped to usher in nutty things like the Renaissance, scientific discovery, and capitalism. It was when nationalism swept Europe that a centralizing impulse led to problems. I guess you were opposed to the relatively peaceful breakup of the Soviet Union.
Even if what octopus says is right, military force is only worth using if it can intimidate the seceding state into giving up with little bloodshed. An all out fight would set our country back further than just letting a split happen. After all, a split can always lead back to union when conditions change.
There is, realistically, no likelihood of secession in 21st century America, despite a few Tweets.
Russia and China can do pretty much whatever they want right up to causing the US to use nukes, and the US doesn’t need California in order to use nukes, and California’s opinion on the matter doesn’t mean a flying fuck all to DC. Only difference is all the red states that want to “bomb the hell out of” whatever they don’t like will have to suck it up and pay for it themselves.
Oh, and I believe there is a lot of weapons & rocket technology developed in California, so yeah, y’all will still be our friends.
Is it going to happen anytime soon? No, but this thinking that goes “let’s declare war and bomb the hell out of” is precisely the type of attitude California is sick of, and sick of paying for.
I am having a hard time seeing any way in which a California-free USA would be “better” or “stronger.” In fact, given California’s outsized financial, cultural and intellectual contribution to the nation, it’s effectively impossible. But an independent California would be much worse off too.
There will be a referendum on the 2018 California ballot. That is at least the beginning of an “attempt to secede”. It’s no joke and it will be interesting to see how they vote. And no, there won’t be another “Civil War”.
That’s a bold statement considering we’re only a few years into the century.
Also, I’m not sure how that is a response to my question.
Well since opinions are unprovable and I know this board and the people on it sometimes have a hard time accepting factual stuff, I don’t know how much time I want to spend on a fruitless endeavor.
It’s worth it to me to keep the union together. I am extremely anti-secessionist and I believe force should be used to prevent it and to send the message that treasonous attitudes will be dealt with.
I don’t 1421 micro states where the USA once was.
Yeah and a politically decentralized Europe had many wars. Crack open a history book. Napoleon, WWI, WWII, many minor wars, and colonial competition are waiting for you.
But yes, the statue of David is nice.
And I wasn’t a fan of the breakup of USSR. I thought it would lead to competition between the former republics and warfare. Ukraine says “hi!” If the USA were not so overwhelmingly dominant we’d probably be seeing the Baltic states partitioned as we type.
We also have bases in former Soviet Territory. Red State America won’t take kindly to China setting up air bases in the Nation of Hawaii or some nonsense like that.
Nope. Can’t reward petulance like that. If they don’t want to be in the USA a plane ticket is cheaper than rebuilding San Fran and LA.
This
Resurrect Sherman. California didn’t learn from the South’s lesson?
What are you talking about? If CA gets permission from congress to leave the Union, why would there be war?
http://www.yescalifornia.org/independence_day_statement
Excerpted:
“If it is demonstrated via honest referendum that the political aspirations of the people of California include independence from the authority, jurisdiction, and influence of the United States Government, then the United States of America must, in accordance with their treaty obligations under the United Nations Charter, “take due account” of that, and not only allow us to develop the self-government that is the cornerstone of the American Revolutionary War and the Charter of the United Nations, but they must even assist us in the progressive development of the free political institutions that are conducive of the type of self-government to which we are entitled as a free people.”
Which congress? The California State Legislature or the U.S. Congress?