# Would better dressed/behaved '60s War Protestors have shortened the War? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 7, 2013, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-better-dressed-behaved-60s-war-protestors-have-shortened-the-war/655052 "2013-04-07T03:26:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-better-dressed-behaved-60s-war-protestors-have-shortened-the-war/655052/21 "2013-04-07T13:45:46Z")
You mean Gandhi, who dressed like a Hindu holy man and rallied the entire Hindu population after him? It was the parliamentarians who dressed like outsiders, not him (and Churchill’s adaption of British symbolism for his own leadership is another good example) Martin Luther, the Priest who spoke Latin and whose success derived directly from the fact that he was a German opposing Rome in Germany? An on the other hand - Marx, who was a theorist, not a leader, and saw no real success in his life? If you want to lead people, the first thing you need to do is convince them that you are one of them. Gandhi and Luther could do that. Marx had to wait for Lenin. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-better-dressed-behaved-60s-war-protestors-have-shortened-the-war/655052/22 "2013-04-07T14:03:24Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > The premise is already dubious because not everyone who protested the war was a hippie, which is why the protests were in some theoretical vague sense threatening the social order. But what’s the hypothetical alternative reality? Everyone dons a suit and tie and votes for Humphrey? And he’d pull out sooner than Nixon? > > Generally those who dissent against war are marginalized and painted by the powers that be as cowardly, treasonous, ignorant, naive, etc. I’m not sure how much being able to take off “and dress funny” off the list would really help. Just look at protests since then and their blunted effect. I quite agree that Ibn’s premise is quite dubious for numerous reasons. I recall attending the last DC anti-war rally on the Mall in 2003 just before the invasion, where 90% of the clothing worn by marchers was no different than what was worn at Tyson’s Corner Mall. It was a quite peaceful affair the entire day. But I do recall walking in the streets on the way from the US Captiol to the US Navy Shipyards when we passed a business complex whereupon there was second floor with a balcony lined with a bunch of white shirted young males under a banner that read “YOUNG REPUBLICANS against SADDAM”. They were flipping the finger at us and shouting that we were Saddam Lovers and of course traiters. Perhaps that’s why I am quite sure of the dubiousness of Ibn’s premise about protestors ‘behaving better’ by dropping the counter cuture ways would have handed the 1968 election to the Democrats and therefore the war in Vietnam would have been shortened. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-better-dressed-behaved-60s-war-protestors-have-shortened-the-war/655052/23 "2013-04-07T14:33:44Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > The cry of the conformist throughout the ages. > > It was Gandhi, not the Indian parliamentarians, who drove the British from India before they wished — and that fat fraud Churchill who sneered at Gandhi’s unconventional dress; it was Karl who led a singularly alienated life and who despised most of his followers, who created the groundwork for the political change that engulfed the next century — how many of the dutiful little centrists of the 19th century are today remembered ?; it was Luther who kicked in the rotten wood of the triumphal catholic edifice instead of toadying to the Church’s insistence on obedience to the power. > > What success they had does not justify them: they would have been right to hold their beliefs whether those beliefs were right or wrong; but integrity trumps strategy every time — even for winning, insofar as that matters. > I would not have been a hippy; but I respect them for not knuckling to mindless, obsequious, agreeable convention. Certainly not simply to persuade the simple safe majority. Some people join a movement to change things. And some people join a movement to show off. And after the people who were there to make a change succeed, the ones who were there showing off tell everyone “That was me. I did that.” ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-better-dressed-behaved-60s-war-protestors-have-shortened-the-war/655052/24 "2013-04-07T14:45:58Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Bullshit. If you want to be different, then go - be different. Do whatever you want. But if you want to convince people of something, try not to alienate them too much. It’s not good strategy. Was there a corporate or political stucture intrinsic in the 1960s anti-war movement where strong leadership could make a strategic decision to conduct the movement in one monolithic homogeneous way with a strict message that would effectively force all in the movement to conform to conduct and a message that would appeal to the SILENT MAJORITY of Americans who were stuck on the DOMINO THEORY fear of Communism as justification for getting hundreds of Americans killed a week supportiing a Catholic Regime in a predominately Buddhist culture? Even if this conformist theory could be proven to have shortened the war by a few years, where was the organization going to come from that would define it and enforces it? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-better-dressed-behaved-60s-war-protestors-have-shortened-the-war/655052/25 "2013-04-07T16:53:09Z")
Moved to GD. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-better-dressed-behaved-60s-war-protestors-have-shortened-the-war/655052/26 "2013-04-07T16:57:19Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Steal this thread! Apropos of nothing: a friend of mine lived in the turkey farm that Abbie was living at when he committed suicide. He has an autographed picture of Marilyn Chambers signed “To Abbie”. This is how I know my six degrees of Kevin Bacon connecting me to OJ Simpson: my friend knew Abbie Hoffman, who was represented at trial by William Kunstler, who was going to defend Marlon Brando’s son but was replaced by Robert Shapiro, who defended OJ. Also, since we’re now no longer in the pit, Notfooled, your posts are walls of tl;dr bullshit. I look forward to your eventual and seemingly inevitable banning. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-better-dressed-behaved-60s-war-protestors-have-shortened-the-war/655052/27 "2013-04-07T17:41:48Z")
> [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > I think you are missing the point \*\*Ibn Warraq \*\*was making. > > It isn’t that the war was prolonged by the behavior and appearance of the Vietnam protesters, it is that a more credible message and appearance would have been more effective in turning the main stream view against the war. There isn’t a hope in hell this would have made a difference. For one thing, the extent to which anti-Vietnam War protesters were all scruffy hippies is being overblown. For another, it still wouldn’t have mattered. The government was not basing its policies on what protestors were doing. As has been pointed out, the Iraq War, a far more idiotic enterprise based on lies even more ridiculous than the ones that started Vietnam, rolled right along despite the presence of many protestors who didn’t look like weird hippies. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-better-dressed-behaved-60s-war-protestors-have-shortened-the-war/655052/28 "2013-04-07T18:00:17Z")
> [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > Information for the general public at the time was limited to what was shown on the evening news hour and the protesters lacked credibility with the public in part due to appearance and actions. What the public saw was a hippy love fest rather than a coherent anti-war message and reasoning. Having been at many anti-Vietnam War demonstrations personally, what was shown on the evening news was what made good TV, not an accurate reflection of the makeup of the demonstrators. TV would of course focus on the most extreme or most oddly dressed protesters, ignoring the vast majority. If people saw a “hippie love fest” instead of a “coherent anti-war message and reasoning” it was because that’s what TV chose to show them. Certainly there were people dressed in hippie style at these demonstrations. But the vast majority of protesters dressed like ordinary Americans of the time. Some photos: [http://www.english.illinois.edu/maps/vietnam/demo.jpg](http://www.english.illinois.edu/maps/vietnam/demo.jpg) [http://solidarity-us.org/site/files/Student\_Vietnam\_War\_protesters.jpg](http://solidarity-us.org/site/files/Student_Vietnam_War_protesters.jpg) [![](http://projectsmrj.pbworks.com/f/1305649489/Vietnam_protest.jpg) ](http://projectsmrj.pbworks.com/f/1305649489/Vietnam_protest.jpg) [http://tgsthethingstheycarried.wikispaces.com/file/view/mgilley\_antiwar\_protest.jpg/331905422/mgilley\_antiwar\_protest.jpg](http://tgsthethingstheycarried.wikispaces.com/file/view/mgilley_antiwar_protest.jpg/331905422/mgilley_antiwar_protest.jpg) > **[Kadin Bersatu - Kamar Dagang dan Industri Indonesia](https://permablitzhawaii.com/)** > > Website Kamar Dagang dan Industri Warkar [![](https://padresteve.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/war-protest.jpg) ](https://padresteve.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/war-protest.jpg) [http://www.joyen.net/VOASpecial/soft0627/201111/20111104131248494.jpg](http://www.joyen.net/VOASpecial/soft0627/201111/20111104131248494.jpg) I’m sure plenty of photos can be found of long-hairs protesting too, but the idea that the demonstrators consisted mostly of “filthy hippies” is a myth and a lie. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-better-dressed-behaved-60s-war-protestors-have-shortened-the-war/655052/29 "2013-04-07T19:36:38Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > There isn’t a hope in hell this would have made a difference. Sure there was. This entire conversation started because in the “In God We Trust” thread, Der Trihs made a point of claiming that if MLK had been “polite” he wouldn’t have been so successful. I pointed out that part of his whole strategy was to make the Civil Rights movement appealing to most Americans and to have it set up so that they would generate sympathy. That’s one of the reason why you’ll notice the Civil Rights marchers under King were always dressed in their Sunday best and while they engaged in civil disobedience but always made sure that radicals weren’t able to hijack their movement or misrepresent it. They made a point of not allowing certain signs or banners at their events etc. I then made an offhand remarks suggesting if the anti-War movement had behaved in such a way and not allowed themselves to be portrayed the way they came to be viewed than they would have been more successful whereas what they really did was allow Nixon to get elected and delayed the end of the war. I pointed to a book by professor Kim McQuaid called _The Anxious Years_. chronicling the 60s and early 70s in America where he spends a good time goring various sacred cows. [http://www.amazon.com/Anxious-Years-America-Vietnam-Watergate-Era/dp/0465003893/ref=sr\_1\_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1365360491&sr=1-5&keywords=The+Anxious+Years](http://www.amazon.com/Anxious-Years-America-Vietnam-Watergate-Era/dp/0465003893/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1365360491&sr=1-5&keywords=The+Anxious+Years) One of the major points of his book was detailing how the anti-War movement learned the wrong lessons from the Civil Rights movement and as a result turned off most Americans in ways that the Civil Rights movement didn’t. There were a variety of reasons for this, but the main one from which the others flowed is that the Civil Rights movement was led by and represented people fighting to get accepted by and become a part of the mainstream while the anti-War movement with few exceptions was led by and represented by people who were from the mainstream and who wanted to break away. To be blunt I wasn’t so much talking about the way the people were dressed(which certainly hurt) but behavior like having at every major rally people waving the flag of the NLF(Viet Cong) and having as one of their more popular chants “Ho, Ho, Ho Chi Minh, the NLF is gonna win!”, openly cheering for the victory of the people America was fighting against. In fact at the boarding school school I went to, 20 years before, in 1969, when an Army Chaplain came to speak at the chapel, several(though not a majority) of students hung NLF(Viet Cong) flags out their windows. Now, can anyone imagine the reaction in present day America to Iraq War protesters if they’d carried aloft pictures of Saddam Hussein or if one of their popular chants was “Osama, Osama, victory for Al-Quaeda!”. You’re correct that they weren’t representative of all the anti-war protesters and not all of them were dress like hippies or long-hairs(though be careful about pictures from back then because what’s considered long-hair back then was dramatically different from now). Anyway McQuaid makes several points. A)For better or worse, the clash between protester and the Chicago Police during the 1968 Democratic convention was blamed on the protesters and had they been smarter and led by someone as image-conscious as MLK it would have been avoided. B)It’s hard to dispute Mike Royko’s argument that the chaos surrounding the Democratic convention was part of the reason Nixon managed to narrowly defeat Humphrey. C)Starting in the late 1950s through the 1960s every year approval ratings for the Civil Rights movement and MLK went up as support for Jim Crow plummeted. Martin Luther King went from being seen as a dangerous radical who scared Bobby Kennedy so bad he had him bugged to a national hero who’s birthday is now a major holiday. D)Polls repeatedly showed that the anti-War movement was wildly unpopular due to their behavior, how they presented themselves, how they allowed some radicals to portray them, and how they allowed the media to portray them in stark contrast to how the Civil Rights movement very much understood the concept of “message discipline” and how they were to be portrayed. E)Polls also showed that even people who should have been their strongest supporters hated them. McQuaid points to a key poll which showed that i **n 1968 even most Americans who agreed with the statement that the United States should “immediately and completely withdraw from Vietnam” “strongly disapproved” of the anti-War protesters**. When even the people who agree with you don’t like you, you’ve very badly fucked up. F)He points to Todd Gitlin, the former President of SDS and organizer of the first protests agains the Vietnam War, who later became a professor at UCLA, who made some rather ruthless but necessary critiques of the movement. **Gitlin pointed out how while the Civil Rights movements approval ratings went up during the 1950s and the 1960s, from 1968 onwards every year polls showed approval for the war going down while disapproval for the anti-war protestors went up**. And yes, I think, as does both McQuaid and Gitlin, had the anti-War protestors followed the example of Martin Luther King, at a time when 350 Americans were being sent home in boxes every week they could have gotten the American public to force the war to come to a close much quicker rather than allowing Nixon to use them in his famous “Silent Majority” speech to rally the American public for the war. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-better-dressed-behaved-60s-war-protestors-have-shortened-the-war/655052/30 "2013-04-07T19:58:04Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > For another, it still wouldn’t have mattered. The government was not basing its policies on what protestors were doing. No, the government was not basing it’s policies on the protestors, but on what the American public wanted. Had the protestors been better at winning over the American public, they’d have been more successful like the Civil Rights movement which faced vastly more hardships. > [@](#): > > As has been pointed out, the Iraq War, a far more idiotic enterprise based on lies even more ridiculous than the ones that started Vietnam, rolled right along despite the presence of many protestors who didn’t look like weird hippies. I’m not sure how the Vietnam War could be considered a “far less idiotic enterprise” than the Iraq War. It hurt the US prestige in the World vastly less, lost the US the use of Cam Rahn Bay was a huge strategic blow, angered most of the world far more than either the Afghanistan or Iraq War did, wound up inflicting far more psychological wounds on a generation of Americans, wound up destroying the military which would take well over a decade to recover(ask anyone who served in the 70s). And all of that is ignoring the fact that 58,000 Americans were killed in the Vietnam War whereas the Iraq war only cost about 4500 Americans, less than one tenth the number of Americans who were killed in Vietnam. During the late 60s around 350 Americans were getting killed every single week in Vietnam whereas even if you combine the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars, the fighting and losses were never even remotely as high. Had the fighting been nearly so ferocious and the US had lost around 4000 soldiers it’s first year instead of just a few hundred, I seriously doubt George Bush would have beaten Kerry and the US would probably have been out of Iraq by late 2004. > [@](#): > > The government was not basing its policies on what protestors were doing. As has been pointed out, the Iraq War, a far more idiotic enterprise based on lies even more ridiculous than the ones that started Vietnam, rolled right along despite the presence of many protestors who didn’t look like weird hippies. Yes, because there was vastly less opposition to the Iraq War than the Vietnam War. That’s why the Iraq War didn’t have nearly as many protests. Had 350 Americans been coming home each week in boxes the stakes would have been higher. Had there been a draft stakes would have been vastly higher for young Americans and the parents of young Americans. For that matter, had 40% of all people draft age been serving in the military during the GWOT, the stakes would have also been vastly higher. By contrast, in Vietnam 350 Americans were getting shipped home each week in body bags, high school and college students were facing a draft which effected them and their parents and 40% of all people of draft age during that time period did serve in the military(though most didn’t serve in Vietnam). It’s common to compare the two wars, but you’re comparing apples and oranges. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-better-dressed-behaved-60s-war-protestors-have-shortened-the-war/655052/31 "2013-04-07T20:03:56Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Having been at many anti-Vietnam War demonstrations personally, **what was shown on the evening news was what made good TV, not an accurate reflection of the makeup of the demonstrators**. TV would of course focus on the most extreme or most oddly dressed protesters, ignoring the vast majority. If people saw a “hippie love fest” instead of a “coherent anti-war message and reasoning” it was because that’s what TV chose to show them. > > Certainly there were people dressed in hippie style at these demonstrations. But the vast majority of protesters dressed like ordinary Americans of the time. > > Some photos: > > [http://www.english.illinois.edu/maps/vietnam/demo.jpg](http://www.english.illinois.edu/maps/vietnam/demo.jpg) > [http://solidarity-us.org/site/files/Student\_Vietnam\_War\_protesters.jpg](http://solidarity-us.org/site/files/Student_Vietnam_War_protesters.jpg) > [http://projectsmrj.pbworks.com/f/1305649489/Vietnam\_protest.jpg](http://projectsmrj.pbworks.com/f/1305649489/Vietnam_protest.jpg) > [http://tgsthethingstheycarried.wikispaces.com/file/view/mgilley\_antiwar\_protest.jpg/331905422/mgilley\_antiwar\_protest.jpg](http://tgsthethingstheycarried.wikispaces.com/file/view/mgilley_antiwar_protest.jpg/331905422/mgilley_antiwar_protest.jpg) > [Kadin Bersatu - Kamar Dagang dan Industri Indonesia](http://www.dccofc.org/photos/War/3-26-66_demo_web.jpg) > [http://padresteve.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/war-protest.jpg](http://padresteve.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/war-protest.jpg) > [http://www.joyen.net/VOASpecial/soft0627/201111/20111104131248494.jpg](http://www.joyen.net/VOASpecial/soft0627/201111/20111104131248494.jpg) > > I’m sure plenty of photos can be found of long-hairs protesting too, but the idea that the demonstrators consisted mostly of “filthy hippies” is a myth and a lie. Yes, the bolded part (bolding is mine) is what I was trying to get at. Part of the message was lost in what is now called the “optics” of the news. Showing this optic message during the limited exposure of the general public, during a half hour of national evening news helped prevent an emotional connection between the public, the Silent Majority, and the intended message of the protests. If the evening news hour had to choose between boring, peaceful protests of well dressed average citizens, and more radical looking ‘hippies’, they went with the hippies, flag burners, and flower children. Because it made for more interesting news. There was only so much news air time available. When Walter Cronkite himself began to doubt the official administration war message and realized the pointlessness of the war, then so did the general public. Because he was someone who was respected and whose opinion was admired. In this OP that originated in the pit, **NotfooledbyW** was disagreeing with \*\*Ibn Warrag \*\*about a comment he made about the approach Martin Luther King took during the civil rights movement. Because MLK did not come across as radical, but rather he was articulate and reasonable, his message was heard rather than being dismissed. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-better-dressed-behaved-60s-war-protestors-have-shortened-the-war/655052/32 "2013-04-07T20:15:41Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > One of the enduring images of the era was the word “fuck” written on the foreheads of the protestors. This wasn’t done to simply offend: it was done to prevent their photos from appearing in newspapers, where they could be identified and expelled from college, and then drafted and sent into combat. > > Even so, there were many, many polite, well-groomed people opposed to the war. Some of whom, I’m guessing, had _fuck_ written on their foreheads as well. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-better-dressed-behaved-60s-war-protestors-have-shortened-the-war/655052/33 "2013-04-07T20:33:31Z")
I’d also respectfully challenge Rick’s contention that there were more ridiculous lies told by the government surrounding the Iraq War than Vietnam. The vote to go to War in Iraq was bad but it was not remotely as no noxious or as based on disinformation as the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. Moreover there is no Iraq War comparison to referring to the enemy as the Viet Cong which was such a successful lie that it winds up being parroted even by opponents of the Vietnam War. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-better-dressed-behaved-60s-war-protestors-have-shortened-the-war/655052/34 "2013-04-07T20:37:13Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I pointed out that part of his whole strategy was to make the Civil Rights movement appealing to most Americans and to have it set up so that they would generate sympathy. That’s one of the reason why you’ll notice the Civil Rights marchers under King were always dressed in their Sunday best and while they engaged in civil disobedience but always made sure that radicals weren’t able to hijack their movement or misrepresent it. They made a point of not allowing certain signs or banners at their events etc. You haven’t even been able to demonstrate that anti-Vietnam War protests were typically made up of poorly dressed and behaved people, so you might want to start by establishing that your theory is based on facts. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-better-dressed-behaved-60s-war-protestors-have-shortened-the-war/655052/35 "2013-04-07T21:17:25Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Also, since we’re now no longer in the pit, Notfooled, your posts are walls of tl;dr bullshit. Which Posts and how so? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-better-dressed-behaved-60s-war-protestors-have-shortened-the-war/655052/36 "2013-04-07T21:32:42Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Sure there was. > > In fact at the boarding school school I went to, 20 years before, in 1969, when an Army Chaplain came to speak at the chapel, several(though not a majority) of students hung NLF(Viet Cong) flags out their windows. > > Now, can anyone imagine the reaction in present day America to Iraq War protesters if they’d carried aloft pictures of Saddam Hussein or if one of their popular chants was “Osama, Osama, victory for Al-Quaeda!”. What happened in your boarding school in 1968 prior to Nixon’s presidential win? There was virtually no protest of the US Government going after OBL and toppling the Taliban after the 9/11/01 attacks. And could you explain as a follow up to your boarding school Viet Cong flag wavers anecdote how the anti-war movement’s leaders could have stopped the ‘few’ at that school or anywhere from doing what you said they did? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-better-dressed-behaved-60s-war-protestors-have-shortened-the-war/655052/37 "2013-04-07T21:36:59Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > You haven’t even been able to demonstrate that anti-Vietnam War protests were typically made up of poorly dressed and behaved people, so you might want to start by establishing that your theory is based on facts. I never said they were. In fact, I don’t believe I ever commented on how they were dressed. I talked about how they allowed themselves to be perceived, and quite frankly how they allowed themselves to be perceived is what matters. That was especially true at the Chicago convention where their clashes with the police and reports of them throwing bags of shit at cops. This caused even people like Tip O’Neil, an anti-War Congressman from one of the most liberal districts in America to condemn them. Furthermore, since you’re familiar with them, you must be familiar with how one the most popular chants was “Ho, Ho, Ho Chi Minh! The NLF is gonna win!” and how at every large protest there were people holding aloft flags of the NLF(Viet Cong). Unsurprisingly most Americans felt the same towards anti-War protesters who openly cheered for the victory of Ho Chi Minh and the NLF(Viet Cong) as modern day Americans would react to people waving pictures of Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein as well as openly calling for a Taliban victory. Yes, it was only a minority that did so, but they allowed themselves to be defined as such by not controlling their image. Now, since you brought up their appearance, I’ll merely point out how many of the people in Colibri’s pictures were by the standards of the day, “long-hairs”. Yes, referring to them as such may seem weird to modern day audiences, but from a time period where every man over 30 was expected to have a crew cut or a near crew cut, things are different. I’m sure fans of the movie First Blood may remember the famous “get a haircut” scene. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-better-dressed-behaved-60s-war-protestors-have-shortened-the-war/655052/38 "2013-04-07T21:49:47Z")
Why shortened the war was the middle class seeing their sons, nephews, sons of friends and neighbors returning in body bags. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-better-dressed-behaved-60s-war-protestors-have-shortened-the-war/655052/39 "2013-04-07T21:52:46Z")
What shortened the war was college kids getting drafted. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-better-dressed-behaved-60s-war-protestors-have-shortened-the-war/655052/40 "2013-04-07T22:02:49Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What shortened the war was college kids getting drafted. As someone who held a 2S (student) deferment during the Vietnam War (1969-1973) and had a low lottery number, this wasn’t a major factor. Not very many college kids got drafted. The brunt was on those who couldn’t afford to go (or didn’t have scholarships). **PastTense** has it right. My lottery number was so low that if I hadn’t had a student deferment in 1969 I would have been drafted. By the time I graduated in 1973 and became 1A the call-ups had decreased so much that I was at no risk. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-better-dressed-behaved-60s-war-protestors-have-shortened-the-war/655052.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-better-dressed-behaved-60s-war-protestors-have-shortened-the-war/655052.md?page=3)