Would Brad Pitt's Character Be Convicted in the Movie "Seven"?

Tominator:

What he’s trying to get at is that the corporate nature of the legal system isn’t what makes the actions of the legal system right or wrong. We have the procedures so we can avoid errors and social bads.

But if it is wrong for me to steal, it is also wrong for a group to steal. If it is right for a group to execute a criminal it is also morally right for me to execute a criminal.

Now, most times we refrain from this action is to avoid problems. The state has the power to execute criminals, and for purposes of this discussion we stipulate that this is morally correct. Well, where does this power come from? It comes from the individuals who make up the state. We appoint people to make these decisions so that we can make fair decisions.

If I execute my neighbor, how can anyone know whether what I did was justified? Maybe he cut off my wife’s head. Well, in that case the killing was morally justified. But how are my neighbors going to know that. The see me execute my neighbor…they might conclude that I should be executed as a dangerous maniac. And some people have different ideas about who needs to be killed than others. Left this way, we have a mess.

So, as a society we delegate these things. The morality of state action comes because we delegate our personal moral authorities. And because we share resources, we are able to afford things as a group (such as prisons) that we wouldn’t be able to afford as individuals. And we get professionals who have thought about things, we get consistent rules.

But the moral authority to execute people comes from the people, not the government.

Well there would generally be a difference in that jail is normally punishment for a crime, whereas kidnapping is generally done for money or to force a policy change by a government. I morally disapprove of detaining people against their will for the latter purpose, whether a government or an individual does it.

But is there a moral difference between kidnapping someone as a punishment for that person’s crime and a judge sending him to jail for the same reason? In my view, no. Most people arguably have no moral right to impose the same punishment a judge would, because they have no knowledge of the circumstances that would make them competent to determine whether he was guilty or not. But take a rape victim who saw her attacker personally; I have no moral reason to say that a judge should punish her attacker, and that she should not.

As a practical matter, I do not think the law can be changed to reflect my moral view and still adequately protect innocent people. But the question I was addressing in that paragraph wasn’t whether shooting Doe was legal (it wasn’t) nor whether it should be legal (arguably it shouldn’t be), but whether it was morally wrong (it wasn’t, IMO).

Not enough to prove a (different) debate that I am having with my spouse, but it’s a start.

Lemur866 is quite right. The police do not give up their rights when they are sworn in. They have the right to counsel, the right to remain silent and the right against forced self-incrimination. (they can be disciplined, job-wise, for invoking those rights) It is understandably difficult to convict a police officer of anything. They know the legal system, have access to lawyer at all times through their union, and it would be hard to find a jury of 12 where at least 1 wouldn’t have a pro-police bias. (remember the videotaped asswhuppin’ of Rodney King?)

This strikes me as a pretty straightforward logcal fallacy: the fallacy of division. It seems to me that there are lots of things that the state can (morally correctly) do that an individual couldn’t, even in principle. For example:[ul][]the military draft[]issue search warrants[]regulate interstate/international commerce[]tax[]annex territory[]create law[/ul]The state is a different type of entity than an individual. That shouldn’t keep us from trying to decide what a moral state is, but it’s not clear that the answer lies in just compositing individual powers.

Of course they don’t give up those rights. I never said they gave up ** all** their rights - just certain rights of refusal, and the ability to claim ignorance. Lest I leave several of you behind, I’m going to overtly state what I should have said in the beginning. I’m talking about moral and ethical rights, not necessarily legal rights.

Let me try to make it real simple. I’ll start with a scenario with two possible outcomes.

In Scenario 1, spooje is just a private citizen, with an armload of groceries and headed home.

In Scenario 2, spooje is a sworn officer of the law.

Screwtape: “spooje, there’s a guy in there with a gun and a bomb and he says that he’s going to blow up the day care center in two minutes. Go in and get him.”

Scenario 1:
spooje: “Fuck you.”

*Scenario 2: *
spooje: “Well, I certainly would rather not, but I swore that I would, so I’m going in.”

Can you NOT see that sworn officers have given up the right to refuse to do certain things, which private citizens retain? Can you imagine what the world would be like if the police were not constrained to do things that the rest of us could refuse to do?

I realize that when I start using the “h” word I tend to get looks as if I have just started speaking Cantonese to an Inuit, but I’ll probably keep trying.

I think you ease back on the tone a little Screwtape.

We were discussing what would happen to character in the context of the legal system, i.e. ‘Would he be convicted if…’ So forgive me if I assume we are discussing legal rights.

There should be a ‘should’ between ‘you’ and ‘ease’.

Preview, then reply. Preview, then reply. Preview, then reply.

spooje I’m sorry you object to my tone. But when I have gone to the trouble to support my position, in response to a polite request by Biggirl, and I’m told “you’re wrong, sorry” without any specific refuting of my points, it tends to annoy me. When you support it, again without even addressing any of the points I went to the trouble to research, it tends to annoy me.

I presume the “we” to which you refer does not include me, or you hadn’t read my previous posts. The OP, before I attempted my development of related ideas, seemed a rather foregone conclusion. I was trying to bring something new to the discussion, i.e. whether or not police should get cut any slack.

Very well. Would he have been convicted. No. Should he? Yes.

As you response was to my tone, and not to my points, I will assume you agree with them.

To the rest of you, if you agree that police should be held to a higher standard than private citizens, I’d like to hear about it.

Screwtape:

Apparantly I misunderstood you. We agree, police officers don’t give up their constitutional rights by becoming cops, those rights are inalienable, meaning that they cannot be voluntarily signed away.

But yes, cops do have responsibilities that private citizens don’t have. But failing those responsibilities does not leave a cop criminally liable, it means that they might get disciplinary action, or lose their job, or have a suspect go free, or perhaps bring shame on themselves.

If that’s what you’re talking about then there’s no disagreement.

I had to think about this one a while, and I’m still not sure I’ve come up with the right answer, but at least I have an answer.

The fallacy of division, as I understand it, is the assumption that the members of a group or the elements of a set have all the characteristics of the group as a whole. Examples of the fallacy would be assuming that because 4 is an even number, then 1 and 3 must be even numbers, since together they comprise 4, or that all Asian-Americans are rich, since Asian-Americans overall are richer than white Americans. In this case, you are saying that Lemur’s position, and perhaps mine, is fallacious, because it assumes that what is right or wrong for the state is also right or wrong for the individual, because the state is comprised of individuals.

I can’t speak for Lemur, but I say that the position that what is right or wrong for the individual is also right or wrong for the state does not rest only on the assumption that the constituents of the state have all the characteristics of the state as a whole. It rests more on the assumption that the morality or unmorality of an action is determined by that action’s consequences and intentions, not by who is doing the action. How much of morality is consequence and how much is intention is an almost endlessly debatable question to which I have no ready answer, but I do believe that between the two of them you should have everything you need to make moral judgments, without referring to the identity of the moral actor. For example, if you judge the enslavement of human beings to be a moral evil, whose intentions and consequences both are presumably undesirable, it should not be necessary to inquire whether the slavemaster is white, black, male, female, individual, corporate, or governmental in order to make that judgment. It is wrong regardless of the identity of the slavemaster. That is why I, and many others, are viscerally averse to anything that smacks of a moral “double standard,” where moral judgments differ according to the identity of the actor even when the intentions and consequences are the same.

Obviously, there are many that do not hold to my moral beliefs. Christians, for example, can only hold to their belief that God is all-good by using a radically different standard of “goodness” for God than they would apply to humans. However, the fact that my moral views differ from those of America’s dominant religion does not mean that they are logically fallacious.

As to the specific examples you gave of conduct you considered right for government that an individual “couldn’t, even in principle,” I think I can address many of them by relying on the old Jeffersonian principle, that a government derives its just powers from the consent of the governed. I believe that Kim Jong Il in North Korea has exactly as much moral right as I do to make law, draft people, or do any of the things you mentioned: none. Neither of us has the consent of the governed. Gerhard Schroeder and the Bundestag deputies do have some moral right to do the things you listed, in Germany, because they at least arguably have the consent of the Germans to govern. They do not have the moral right to do so in France or America, because the French and Americans have not consented to be governed by Schroeder and the Bundestag. If some group were unwise enough to give me consent to govern them, I as an individual would have as much moral right as the corporate State to make law, annex territory, or whatnot on their behalf.

[quote]
It seems to me that there are lots of things that the state can (morally correctly) do that an individual couldn’t, even in principle. For example:[list][li]the military draft[/li][/quote]

We disagree on this: I consider the military draft to be morally wrong in any circumstance.

[quote]
[li]issue search warrants[]regulate interstate/international commerce[]tax[/li][/quote]

All of these are things that I agree the individual has no moral right to do, because the people searched, regulated, and taxed have not given him consent to do so. The government, in certain countries, can legitimately claim that the people have given it consent to do these things. Defining “consent” can be tricky, as even in a democratic country there is always somebody dissatisfied with the government, but however tenuous the government’s claim to the consent of the governed, it is usually better founded than any individual’s would be.

[quote]
[li]annex territory[/li][/quote]

This is a particularly good example of an action whose morality depends on the consent of the governed. Most people would agree that the United States has no moral right to annex Canada or Mexico, because neither the Canadians nor the Mexicans want to be annexed.

On a more personal level, my home city recently tried to annex a neighboring community, the majority of whose inhabitants did not wish to be annexed. I voted against the annexation proposal, even though it would likely have brought economic benefits to my home city, because we did not have the consent of the governed.

Indeed the state is a different type of entity, but for me the whole point of morality is that its rules depend on the intentions and consequences of actions, not on what type of entity is doing the action.

It’s not that individuals have all the characteristics of states since they make up states, it’s that states derive all their power from the individuals that make up the state. If the individuals who make up the state do not have the moral authority to authorize executions, then the state cannot have the moral authority to authorize executions.

In my view, there is no moral difference between acting as a group and acting as an individual, except for practical ones such as limiting human fallibility and acheiving efficiencies of scale. Taxes are only moral if the people as a body decide to enact them. If taxes are not levied with the consent of the governed, then they are morally exactly equivalent to theft or extortion. If it would be wrong for me to use physical force to accomplish some action, it would be equally wrong for the state to do so. The state can have no moral authority that is not delegated to it by the individuals who make up the state, the mere fact that actions are undertaken by the state or group cannot make them moral.

Danimal says:

Almost, but IMHO, that web site (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/division.html) is a little misleading in appearing to state that all properties of the whole must be shared. I like http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html#division better. But anyway…

Except that who is performing the act is exactly the point of many moral judgements. For example, I decide to contribute money to a charity. If it’s my money, that’s fine. If it’s your money, that’s bad. The intention is fused to the question of who performed the action. In short, many times the intentions and consequences associated with an act can only be determined by examining the entities associated with the act. There’s no gain made by trying to make morality (except maybe a thoroughly utilitarian one) “actor-neutral”, because the identities of the actors so often intrude onto the “rightness” of an action.

Lemur866 says:

Examine my previous bulleted list. Which of these powers did/would you have “in a state of nature”? I claim people have none of these powers in a state of nature.

The problem I’m having is I see three propositions in your post:[list=1][]There is no moral difference between acting as a group and acting as an individual (implying that the state can have only those powers that individuals have, and actually has only those powers that have been given to it by those individuals)[]The state can have no moral authority that is not delegated to it by the individuals who make up the state (implying that the state can have any power that can be dreamed up, and actually has only those powers that have been given to it by those individuals)The mere fact that actions are undertaken by the state or group cannot make them moral.[/list=1]I think we can agree on 3. You (and Danimal) seem to like 1, while I think 2 is probably closer to how things work (even if it’s a little sketchy). If that’s true, please describe how you had the powers enumerated in the above bulleted list in a state of nature so we can see how the government got them.

Convicted? Perhaps. But, I think the most interesting topic in this thread is “Would you have shot Doe?”

I probably would not have. Here’s why: it’s a worse punishment to leave Doe alive. Remember – Pitt was the sin of Wrath. By not killing Doe, it completely messes up Doe’s ‘goal’. By not committing the sin of Wrath, Doe’s ‘mission’ is incomplete.

Also, in Doe’s mind, the people that he killed/was responsible for the deaths of (Vanity took her own life) ‘deserved’ to die. Sloth was a ‘drug-dealing pederast’, he killed a prostitute, a greedy businessman, a model who couldn’t live without her beauty, and a morbidly obese man. So, by buying into the notion that Doe deserved to die, that’s playing his game the way he wants it played. Letting him live, not acting upon your instincts, by not becoming Wrath, you punish him. By letting him live. By not validating his philosophy. True, that in and of itself could be construed as a ‘cruel and unusual punishment’ (since it is almost torture based on his worldview), but I feel that ‘cruel and unusual’ should be read as ‘needlessly cruel and exceedingly unusual’. In order for a punishment to work, it must be cruel, in order to cause suffering to the guilty party. Since John Doe clearly wanted and expected to die (note the almost serene look on his face before he dies), how is killing him a punishment? No. Let the guy live. Lock him up in solitary, no lights, no windows, no exercise. Feed him 3 meals a day. No mail, no commuication with the outside world. At all. None. And, when he dies in that cell of natural causes, leave him there for a week. Then bury him. Let him lead a long, dark, lonely life in that cell.

One quick question: Why were the cops armed? There were snipers in the choppers.

OK,

The draft: immoral involuntary servitude.

Search Warrants: If somone has harmed me, I have the moral authority to put things right. So yes, I would have the moral right to go on my neighbors property IF I were sure that was the only way I could redress a wrong. However, practically I waive that right, since it is safer to leave it to professionals, and I am fallible. Law helps to limit human fallibility.
Regulate Commerce: I have the moral right to regulate my own commerce, right? So, I can make contracts between me and my neighbors. Regulation of commerce can be done morally or immorally. But it is not always immoral. That is, if someone uses my property as a marketplace, I have certain rights as a property owner. If people use public space, we have rights over that as cooperative property owners.

Tax: Fee for service. I want military, I have to pay for it. If someone wants me to provide services, they have to pay. And if they won’t pay after they signed the contract, they can be forced to pay. Taxes are not immoral.

Annex Territory: This would be wrong unless done with the consent of the owners. It would be wrong to invade and annex Canada, just like it would be wrong to stage a home invasion on my neighbor. However, if me and the neighbor got married, we would pool our estate. But it has to be voluntary to be moral.

But let me turn it around: What actions can a group do that would be immoral for an individual to do? Can a group morally delegate a person to carry out an execution if it would be immoral for the individuals in that group to carry out the execution?

If it is immoral for the individual, it is immoral for the group. We can only delegate moral authority that we actually have. I believe we have natural rights, call them what you will, but our governmental organization doesn’t grant us rights it protects our pre-existing rights. So how can Governmental action be moral unless that morality was delegated to it by the people who constitute it?

Part of forming a civil society is doing more than delegating moral authority, it’s voluntarily relinquishing the right to exercise that moral authority to the state.

If we didn’t relinquish those rights we grant to the state, then the state as higher authority is powerless since any broken law or unsatisfactory outcome is subject to being overruled individually at any time. We can argue about the extent to which we delegate moral authority to the state, but that’s a separate issue. If you don’t grant the state the power of final arbitration in certain cases, then you have no state; instead, you have a group of suggestion-makers.

Frankly, I don’t trust your judgement or the judgement of my neighbours to decide when they may justifiably search my property for their belongings, or to individually decide (and carry out) when I merit the death penalty. Because of that mistrust, I’m willing to cede those rights to the government if you are. Therein lies more safety for both of us than to retain those rights along with the necessity of defending them at all times.

It’s perfectly reasonable to me that the group may collectively decide something about or against me that the individuals of the group may not - laws, for instance. It’s absurd to imagine that everyone be subject to the laws created and enforced by each individual, for which there is no consistency or even fundamental requirement of assent by me.

OK, let’s be a little more clear. There are plenty of actions that I feel we must voluntarily renounce so that we can live in society, because it wouldn’t be safe to do them. So, I have no problem voluntarily giving up my ability to search my neighbor’s house in return for protection of my privacy. I have no problem giving up my right to execute various humans who deserve it, in return for the procedural protections of the rule of law. But, the fact that I voluntarily suspend my exercise of those rights doesn’t mean that I don’t have those natural rights. I have the right to self-defense, but as a practical matter I leave it to the cops and courts. But the cops and court’s powers are derived from the people. I have the right to defend myself, and I have the right to appoint others to help me defend myself. A judge only has the ability to sentence someone because he has been delegated that authority by the people.

So I have no problem refraining from executing John Doe, even if I have a moral right to do so it makes a better society if I delegate that responsibility.

This could be a long debate, and it looks like your definition of where a government’s “rights” come from will just be circular, as any “right” the government exercises, if not directly drawn from a right you feel an individual has, will be declared immoral. I realize this is your argument, but it seems circular to me and I can’t see any way out of it.

Well, yeah, then McDonalds frycooks have given up the right to refuse to flip burgers. I don’t think those are really “rights.”

Those aren’t rights, those are responsibilities.