# Would DDT and leaded fuel get banned in today's world? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 23, 2012, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-ddt-and-leaded-fuel-get-banned-in-todays-world/635584 "2012-09-23T11:19:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Heracles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heracles/32/487_2.png) [@Heracles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heracles)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-ddt-and-leaded-fuel-get-banned-in-todays-world/635584/1 "2012-09-23T11:19:33Z")
Just thinking out loud here. As I understand it, DDT was banned because it was discovered that it tended to concentrate in the food chain. Leaded fuels were banned because concentration of airborne lead were steadily rising. In both cases, it must have been difficult to do a simple double-blind study, because these were widespread effects affecting the whole planet. Yet eventually the evidence was deemed sufficient and governments acted. But today I see many environmental problems that nobody seems willing to tackle. Clmate change has become one more left-vs-right issue, bee colony collapse will remain “under investigation” for years to come, etc. My questions: If the negative effects of DDT were discovered today, would it get banned? Similarly, if the negative effects of leaded fuels were discovered today, would they get banned? What forces would prevent the bans, if any? It’s unclear to me if the corporate lobbying effect has remained stable or gotten worse. And if the left-vs-right polarisation is worse than it was in the 1960s and 1970s. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-ddt-and-leaded-fuel-get-banned-in-todays-world/635584/2 "2012-09-23T16:03:37Z")
Leaded fuel is still in use in aviation. And I seem to recall that DDT is also still used under certain circumstances, but I’d have to find a cite to prove that one. Maybe later. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-ddt-and-leaded-fuel-get-banned-in-todays-world/635584/3 "2012-09-23T16:07:39Z")
You don’t have to have a double blind study to evaluate the danger or effectiveness of everything, only those things in which the reaction of the tested or testers is a significant factor in corrupting the results. You don’t need a double blind test to be able to detect increasing levels of atmospheric lead, and to know that it’s bad. There’s never been a double blind, placebo controlled study on the effectiveness of parachutes, and yet we’re pretty sure they work. As far as the left/right issue, that’s an interesting question. I see some similarities between global warming and smoking in the 50s and 60s - the actual science was warning people of the danger, but the establishment powers had considerable influence on public opinion and regulation. In fact, some of the very same PR firms that tried to push the “smoking isn’t dangerous” idea are also pushing the “global warming is a hoax” campaign. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-ddt-and-leaded-fuel-get-banned-in-todays-world/635584/4 "2012-09-23T18:44:43Z")
Not only would Lead get banned, it would never have been permitted in the first place! Firstly, it’s a catalytic converter poison, so that alone would be a non-starter. Secondly, if we were somehow living in a world without catalytic converters, the science behind Lead and children’s brain development is well-established - in your hypothetical world, is Lead allowed in paint? Because if it isn’t I can’t see it being permitted in fuel. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-ddt-and-leaded-fuel-get-banned-in-todays-world/635584/5 "2012-09-23T20:21:34Z")
Of course it would get banned. Do you somehow think that entrenched corporate interests against the banning of leaded gas and DDT were somehow weaker back in the past? ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-ddt-and-leaded-fuel-get-banned-in-todays-world/635584/6 "2012-09-23T21:37:13Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Of course it would get banned. Do you somehow think that entrenched corporate interests against the banning of leaded gas and DDT were somehow weaker back in the past? Of course they were weaker in the past, politically speaking. Today we wouldn’t have Medicare, Social Security, and the EPA if that hadn’t been the case. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-ddt-and-leaded-fuel-get-banned-in-todays-world/635584/7 "2012-09-24T00:53:50Z")
If they were invented today, _automobiles_ would be banned, never mind the fuel. Let’s see… Convenient 🙂 Fast 🙂 No more arranging your life around train schedules 🙂 Lure of the open road 🆒 Roughly a 1% chance of being killed in an accident at some point…forget it. They would be immediately banned, and even if they weren’t, no investor would ever back their manufacture. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-ddt-and-leaded-fuel-get-banned-in-todays-world/635584/8 "2012-09-24T01:08:32Z")
A ton of people have claimed that aspirin is so powerful that if discovered today it would never be allowed for sale over the counter, but only by prescription. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-ddt-and-leaded-fuel-get-banned-in-todays-world/635584/9 "2012-09-24T02:23:12Z")
And, I’ve heard it said (sorry, no cite; just urban legend?) that honey contains so many natural preservatives and poisons that the bees put there, that any artificial concoction containing the same would be forbidden by the FDA. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-ddt-and-leaded-fuel-get-banned-in-todays-world/635584/10 "2012-09-24T02:29:42Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > And, I’ve heard it said (sorry, no cite; just urban legend?) that honey contains so many natural preservatives and poisons that the bees put there, that any artificial concoction containing the same would be forbidden by the FDA. [Considering that most store-brand honey _is_ an artificial concoction…](http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2011/11/tests-show-most-store-honey-isnt-honey/) ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-ddt-and-leaded-fuel-get-banned-in-todays-world/635584/11 "2012-09-24T12:04:49Z")
I can’t believe that leaded gas is still allowed in aviation fuel. I would have thought that there would at least be a plan to phase it out by now. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-ddt-and-leaded-fuel-get-banned-in-todays-world/635584/12 "2012-09-24T12:23:45Z")
> [@Heracles](#): > > Just thinking out loud here. > > As I understand it, DDT was banned because it was discovered that it tended to concentrate in the food chain. Leaded fuels were banned because concentration of airborne lead were steadily rising. > > In both cases, it must have been difficult to do a simple double-blind study, because these were widespread effects affecting the whole planet. Yet eventually the evidence was deemed sufficient and governments acted. It may be a hijack from your thesis, or maybe not, but there wasn’t some gradual buildup of awareness that tetraethyl lead additives in gasoline were harmful – the guy who invented and popularized leaded gas _deliberately concealed_ the harm it inflicted on him and others from the start. The short version of the [Wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley,_Jr.) is detailed enough to be damning. Apparently there was deception involved from the get-go, because they knew people don’t like being poisoned: > [@](#): > > Midgley began working at General Motors in 1916. In December 1921, while working under the direction of Kettering at Dayton Research Laboratories, a subsidiary of General Motors, Midgley discovered that the addition of tetraethyllead (TEL) to gasoline prevented “knocking” in internal combustion engines. The company named the substance “Ethyl”, avoiding all mention of lead in reports and advertising. Oil companies and automobile manufacturers, especially General Motors which owned the patent jointly filed by Kettering and Midgley, promoted the TEL additive as a superior alternative to ethanol or ethanol-blended fuels, on which they could make very little profit.[4] As an industrial process, it was pretty hazardous. Within three years of his discovery, there had been _fifteen_ deaths involved in the manufacturing process, and that’s not counting mere poisonings and insanity: > [@](#): > > In 1923, Midgley took a prolonged vacation to cure himself of lead poisoning. “After about a year’s work in organic lead,” he wrote in January 1923, “I find that my lungs have been affected and that it is necessary to drop all work and get a large supply of fresh air.” He went to Miami, Florida for convalescence.[6] > In April 1923, General Motors created the General Motors Chemical Company (GMCC) to supervise the production of TEL by the DuPont company. Kettering was elected as president, and Midgley was vice president. However, after two deaths and several cases of lead poisoning at the TEL prototype plant in Dayton, Ohio, the staff at Dayton was said in 1924 to be “depressed to the point of considering giving up the whole tetraethyl lead program.”[6] Over the course of the next year, eight more people would die at DuPont’s Deepwater, New Jersey plant.[6] > In 1924, dissatisfied with the speed of DuPont’s TEL production using their “bromide process”, General Motors and Standard Oil Company of New Jersey (now known as ExxonMobil) created the Ethyl Gasoline Corporation to produce and market TEL. Ethyl Corporation built a new chemical plant using a high-temperature ethyl chloride process at the Bayway Refinery in New Jersey.[6] Within the first two months of its operation however, the new plant was plagued by more cases of lead poisoning, hallucinations, insanity, and then five deaths in quick succession. Possibly germane to your main point, Midgley participated in a press conference, apparently for the express purpose of belaying suspicions: > [@](#): > > On October 30, 1924, Midgley participated in a press conference to demonstrate the apparent safety of TEL. In this demonstration, he poured TEL over his hands, then placed a bottle of the chemical under his nose and inhaled its vapor for sixty seconds, declaring that he could do this every day without succumbing to any problems whatsoever.[4][7] However, the State of New Jersey ordered the Bayway plant to be closed a few days later, and Jersey Standard was forbidden to manufacture TEL there again without state permission. Midgley himself was careful to avoid mentioning to the press that he required nearly a year to recover from the lead poisoning brought on by his demonstration at the press conference.[citation needed] According to Deborah Blum in The Poisoner’s Handbook (p. 123), Midgley sought treatment for lead poisoning in Europe a few months after his demonstration at the press conference. Midgley was relieved of his position as vice president of GMCC in April 1925, reportedly due to his inexperience in organizational matters, but he remained an employee of General Motors.[4] ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-ddt-and-leaded-fuel-get-banned-in-todays-world/635584/13 "2012-09-24T12:42:02Z")
Not that corporations didn’t lobby. They did but it hadn’t become such an industry. More to the point, fund raising had not become congresspersons’ full time job (with actual legislation a very part-time activity). Also they felt that the voters were their real constituency, rather than their donors. Straight party-line votes (except on actual organization) were exceedingly rare since the parties spanned a broad spectrum. I remember when the very liberal NY senator Jacob Javits was asked why he was a Republican, he very reasonably answered that he didn’t want to be in the party of the likes of Herman Talmadge. Of course, eventually all those southern bigots became Republicans and Javits could not have remained in that party. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-ddt-and-leaded-fuel-get-banned-in-todays-world/635584/14 "2012-09-24T14:49:56Z")
[QUOTE=Heracles;] If the negative effects of DDT were discovered today, would it get banned? [/QUOTE] There has been a controversy about the banning of DDT all along, there are credible scientists that argue that A) DDT was never that bad. B) it’s potential to improve life by cutting down malaria is so immense that it was worth continuing to use. > **[Controversy on DDT ban fed by a new documentary](https://www.the-independent.com/life-style/health-and-families/controversy-on-ddt-ban-fed-by-a-new-documentary-2081999.html)** > > On September 17, a new documentary > 3 Billion and Counting, directed, written and produced by D. Rutledge Taylor, MD, which explores the devastating death toll caused by malaria since the ban on DDT (dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane), premieres in New... ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-ddt-and-leaded-fuel-get-banned-in-todays-world/635584/15 "2012-09-24T15:06:23Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > A ton of people have claimed that aspirin is so powerful that if discovered today it would never be allowed for sale over the counter, but only by prescription. It’s not a matter of it being “too powerful”, but rather that it has some rather nasty side-effects, including the breakdown of the stomach lining. They’d probably be enough to prevent its approval nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-ddt-and-leaded-fuel-get-banned-in-todays-world/635584/16 "2012-09-24T16:25:16Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > There has been a controversy about the banning of DDT all along, there are credible scientists that argue that A) DDT was never that bad. B) it’s potential to improve life by cutting down malaria is so immense that it was worth continuing to use. Then they’re bad scientists, since DDT is still permitted to combat malaria when appropriate. [Cite](http://www.eac.int/health/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=95%3Aclassification-system&catid=15%3Adiseases&Itemid=32) And I quote: > [@](#): > > …overspraying of DDT on crops have led to DDT resistance in Anopheles mosquitoes. During the 1960s, awareness of the negative consequences of its indiscriminate use increased ultimately leading to bans on agricultural applications of DDT in many countries in the 1970s. > > Though **DDT has never been banned for use in malaria control** and there are several other insecticides suitable for IRS, some advocates have claimed that bans are responsible for tens of millions of deaths in tropical countries where DDT had once been effective in controlling malaria. Furthermore, most of the problems associated with DDT use stem specifically from its industrial-scale application in agriculture, rather than its use in public health. > > The World Health Organization (WHO) currently advises the use of 12 different insecticides in IRS operations. These include DDT and a series of alternative insecticides (such as the pyrethroids permethrin and deltamethrin) to both, combat malaria in areas where mosquitoes are DDT-resistant, and to slow the evolution of resistance. This public health use of small amounts of DDT is permitted under the Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants (POPs), which prohibits the agricultural use of DDT. (bolding mine) Note the development of resistant mosquitoes has been documented, and is a real concern. We’ve seen the assertion that “the DDT ban has killed people in Africa, since it could/should have been used for malarial control” come up on this board every time DDT is mentioned (pardon my lack of cites – can’t search on DDT or any other three-letter term, unfortunately) and most times Rachel Carson is mentioned. Whether it’s some kind of political talking point people use to bash environmentalism, or what, I don’t know, but it’s been debunked multiple times. Sorry for being testy about it. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-ddt-and-leaded-fuel-get-banned-in-todays-world/635584/17 "2012-09-24T16:29:21Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > [Controversy on DDT ban fed by a new documentary | The Independent | The Independent](http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/controversy-on-ddt-ban-fed-by-a-new-documentary-2081999.html) Oh my gosh, I just read that article. That’s some political screed right there, that is. It starts out with an outright lie. **DDT has never been banned for use in malaria control.** ---
**Author:** ![Michael63129](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3da27b/32.png) [@Michael63129](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael63129)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-ddt-and-leaded-fuel-get-banned-in-todays-world/635584/18 "2012-09-24T17:45:36Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > I can’t believe that leaded gas is still allowed in aviation fuel. I would have thought that there would at least be a plan to phase it out by now. Industry is notoriously lazy about this if there isn’t any federal legislation banning something. For example, CFCs were banned for most - but not all - uses, including asthma inhalers, thus manufacturers never bothered to do anything. Until it was banned for that purpose as well (a couple decades after the main ban), leaving them with nothing to fall back on, when they should have developed alternative propellants. ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-ddt-and-leaded-fuel-get-banned-in-todays-world/635584/19 "2012-09-24T19:12:30Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > We’ve seen the assertion that “the DDT ban has killed people in Africa, since it could/should have been used for malarial control” come up on this board every time DDT is mentioned (pardon my lack of cites – can’t search on DDT or any other three-letter term, unfortunately) and most times Rachel Carson is mentioned. Whether it’s some kind of political talking point people use to bash environmentalism, or what, I don’t know, but it’s been debunked multiple times. Sorry for being testy about it. The CATO institute is a heavy pusher of this line, I came across it on[Junk Science](http://junkscience.com/1999/07/26/100-things-you-should-know-about-ddt/), Steven Milloy’s (a CATO “science” fellow/expert) site more than a decade ago and he was also pushing the secondhand smoke not being harmful lie too (at the time, but can’t find it now on his awful site). I’m actually surprised that the douchebags Penn and Teller haven’t made a Bullshit! about it, what with them both being CATO funded shills, fans of Milloy and all (great magicians, they just have scummy politics). ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-ddt-and-leaded-fuel-get-banned-in-todays-world/635584/20 "2012-09-24T19:18:49Z")
> [@Michael63129](#): > > Industry is notoriously lazy about this if there isn’t any federal legislation banning something. For example, CFCs were banned for most - but not all - uses, including asthma inhalers, thus manufacturers never bothered to do anything. Until it was banned for that purpose as well (a couple decades after the main ban), leaving them with nothing to fall back on, when they should have developed alternative propellants. They do have alternative propellants, have done for donkey’s years in the UK. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-ddt-and-leaded-fuel-get-banned-in-todays-world/635584.md?page=2)