# Would death still be bad if a positive afterlife existed? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 27, 2022, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-death-still-be-bad-if-a-positive-afterlife-existed/960177 "2022-02-27T04:34:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2022, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-death-still-be-bad-if-a-positive-afterlife-existed/960177/61 "2022-02-28T19:34:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > In this scenario, what _are_ the strong arguments against murder Well, it’d be nonconsensual, like rape or kidnapping. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2022, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-death-still-be-bad-if-a-positive-afterlife-existed/960177/62 "2022-02-28T19:38:12Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Well, it’d be nonconsensual, like rape or kidnapping Considering the outcome, wouldn’t it be nonconsensual, like paying off all their bills and giving them a tremendous promotion and raise without consulting them first? In this scenario rape and/or kidnapping has a totally different end result. ---
**Author:** ![Cmyers1980](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyers1980/32/11814_2.png) [@Cmyers1980](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cmyers1980)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2022, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-death-still-be-bad-if-a-positive-afterlife-existed/960177/63 "2022-02-28T19:39:38Z")
Some of those things but not the others. They’d be educated but there wouldn’t be any skinned knees or bullying. It would still be as perfect as feasibly possible of course. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2022, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-death-still-be-bad-if-a-positive-afterlife-existed/960177/64 "2022-02-28T19:40:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Considering the outcome, wouldn’t it be nonconsensual, like paying off all their bills and giving them a tremendous promotion and raise without consulting them first? In this scenario rape and/or kidnapping has a totally different end result. Is rape okay if the rapist gives the rapee lots of pleasure and lots of orgasms? Is kidnapping okay if the kidnapper takes the kidnappee somewhere really nice and provides luxury accommodations? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2022, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-death-still-be-bad-if-a-positive-afterlife-existed/960177/65 "2022-02-28T19:50:38Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Is kidnapping okay if the kidnapper takes the kidnappee somewhere really nice and provides luxury accommodations? …and them instantly gives them the deed to the place and the ability to walk away at any time, with an unlimited bank card. We are talking _Personal Heaven_ here, not a nice condo with no escape. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2022, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-death-still-be-bad-if-a-positive-afterlife-existed/960177/66 "2022-02-28T19:55:05Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Is rape okay if the rapist gives the rapee lots of pleasure and lots of orgasms? Again, the prize is a bit more than that. Another problem would be crime and punishment. I would guess that the death penalty would be totally out of the picture, but wouldn’t you need to put _all_ prisoners on death watch to stop mass “escapes” into the next world? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2022, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-death-still-be-bad-if-a-positive-afterlife-existed/960177/67 "2022-02-28T20:04:54Z")
> [@Cmyers1980](#): > > I answered this already. Children that die age to adulthood normally for lack of a better word. Age normally? The environment you are brought up in greatly influences your development, so what would the ideal environment be? Also, at what age does one start getting whatever they desire in the Afterlife? ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2022, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-death-still-be-bad-if-a-positive-afterlife-existed/960177/68 "2022-02-28T20:57:10Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > Can we interact with the beforelife? If not, then regardless of the bliss available, I’d be torn away from my wife, my children, my friends. I once pointed that out in a discussion with a person of faith. I told him that if heaven existed your life on earth would be a mere blip compared to eternity and suspected that while your loved ones and friends might be there _you wouldn’t care_, just as you wouldn’t care about a playmate you had at three, then moved away to never saw again. Personally, if I found sitting at the feet of God looking up in adoration of Him to be a positive thing forever, the “me” doing that would not be the same “me” I am now. ---
**Author:** ![Cmyers1980](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyers1980/32/11814_2.png) [@Cmyers1980](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cmyers1980)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2022, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-death-still-be-bad-if-a-positive-afterlife-existed/960177/69 "2022-02-28T22:33:07Z")
These are good questions but I don’t feel like trying to answer them and getting bogged down in a never ending back and forth of minutia about a hypothetical supernatural realm I made up for a thread that by definition can’t be fully known by living humans. As someone explained in a prior comment it’s not really the point of the thread. ---
**Author:** ![mmmiiikkkeee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/edb3f5/32.png) [@mmmiiikkkeee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mmmiiikkkeee)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2022, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-death-still-be-bad-if-a-positive-afterlife-existed/960177/70 "2022-02-28T22:48:26Z")
Apart from that side question/s there have been many answers to the direct question. They seem pretty divided where some feel most people would commit suicide to get to the better place, and others feeling nothing much would change and we’d still fear/avoid death like we currently do. It might be interesting to debate the two general opinions. I’ve already thrown up a lot of words, so will leave it to others for the time being. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2022, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-death-still-be-bad-if-a-positive-afterlife-existed/960177/71 "2022-03-01T01:48:01Z")
The described afterlife has lots of problems that I can see. I’ve given this some thought and am pretty sure that the only way an eternal heaven could remain pleasant forever would be if it involved some form of brainwashing to _force_ you to be happy. But putting that aside to answer the intended question, I’m not sure I fear death anyway. I fear _pain_, and I avoid painless death too because it would make various people I care about unhappy if I died. I can’t really say that the idea of leaving things unfinished bothers me because I’m quite certain that after I die, _nothing_ will bother me. The great thing about annihilation is that it’s not of ‘neutral’ pleasure value, where it’s better than torture and worse than eating cake. It has _no_ pleasure value, and is not worse than anything, or better than anything. Annihilation is just an end, and you won’t mind that fact after it’s happened. So yeah - currently I have the most favorable possible opinion and expectation of my ‘afterlife’, so I can say with confidence that if I learned that some sort of inferior actualized afterlife was real, I would not be _more_ hasty to exit this mortal coil. A lot of other people probably would, though. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2022, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-death-still-be-bad-if-a-positive-afterlife-existed/960177/72 "2022-03-01T02:29:52Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > An entity that could deal with some kind of infinite afterlife is not “me” in any real sense. The entity that can deal with taxes and auto insurance and so on isn’t the same one as 5-year-old you. And yet you’re presumably ok with that. The OP described voluntary mind alteration as one of the features. So just steadily give yourself the mental resources to cope with the infinite. You’re still you as long as it happens gradually. > [@begbert2](#): > > the only way an eternal heaven could remain pleasant forever would be if it involved some form of brainwashing to _force_ you to be happy. It doesn’t have to _force_ you; just give you the tools needed to be happy in such an environment. Might be as simple as erasing experiences that you’ve enjoyed previously and wish to experience again. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2022, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-death-still-be-bad-if-a-positive-afterlife-existed/960177/73 "2022-03-01T03:02:23Z")
The idea that if we lead a good life we move forward but if we are bad, we are reincarnated as toads (or whatever) has merit, I think, in this hypothetical. Any sort of interfering with the universal plan (by murder, suicide, murder-suicide) should set you back a peg or two. On the subject of afterlives, a favorite movie of mine: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/RmZ-FuBThuQ/maxresdefault.jpg "What Dreams May Come Official Trailer #1 - Robin Williams Movie (1998) HD") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmZ-FuBThuQ) Richard Matheson wrote the source material, BTW. Another interesting take on the subject is an amazon series, “Upload.” [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/0ZfZj2bn_xg/maxresdefault.jpg "Upload - Official Trailer I Prime Video") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZfZj2bn_xg) ---
**Author:** ![Cmyers1980](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyers1980/32/11814_2.png) [@Cmyers1980](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cmyers1980)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2022, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-death-still-be-bad-if-a-positive-afterlife-existed/960177/74 "2022-03-01T04:29:16Z")
It’s a weird argument if you think about it and take the premise seriously. If a supernatural, all loving, all powerful God could create a universe, eternal souls that retain the person’s memories and personality and a perfect afterlife where said souls go (all from nothing) then it would be absolutely trivial to make it so that people in the afterlife don’t get bored and miserable (for long at least) while still retaining their personality and everything that makes them “them.” It’s not logically impossible so why would it be such an obstacle for a God that’s already proven itself to be incomprehensibly powerful? It wouldn’t exactly be a perfect afterlife if the inhabitants ever became dissatisfied or mindless lotus eaters would it? You can’t apply the logic of the natural world to an explicitly supernatural one that you can’t truly understand until you’re in it. It’s like a insect expressing incredulity at the existence of algebra, quantum physics, skyscrapers and supercomputers because it doesn’t fit into their idea of reality. The feasibility of something explicitly supernatural and a mortal being’s ability to understand it are two different things. It’s like arguing that if Dr. Strange was real and had magic powers he couldn’t use his magic to teleport or stop time. He wouldn’t be Dr. Strange if he didn’t have fantastical magic powers and the magic powers wouldn’t really be magic if they could only accomplish what’s already naturally possible and the entire hypothetical falls apart. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2022, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-death-still-be-bad-if-a-positive-afterlife-existed/960177/75 "2022-03-01T05:19:11Z")
The trouble with this response is that it stops the conversation. Every “why” can be answered with “because God! Next question?” ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2022, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-death-still-be-bad-if-a-positive-afterlife-existed/960177/76 "2022-03-01T05:42:00Z")
> [@Cmyers1980](#): > > You can’t apply the logic of the natural world to an explicitly supernatural one that you can’t truly understand until you’re in it. I don’t think you even need to invoke the supernatural. What if heaven was just a really nice AI-powered virtual reality system? Most of what you described (aside from being _truly_ eternal as opposed to just being a really long time) is within the realm of imaginable technology. The question then is just: if your brain could be preserved forever in a VR paradise, would you accept the destruction of the rest of your body? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2022, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-death-still-be-bad-if-a-positive-afterlife-existed/960177/77 "2022-03-01T06:10:14Z")
> [@Cmyers1980](#): > > it would be absolutely trivial to make it so that people in the afterlife don’t get bored and miserable (for long at least) while still retaining their personality and everything that makes them “them.” It’s not logically impossible so why would it be such an obstacle for a God that’s already proven itself to be incomprehensibly powerful? It wouldn’t be trivial to preserve my personality and what makes me “me” if you lose the fact that I have the capability to get bored or annoyed or have opinions. Certainly there are a variety of ways you could brainwash or otherwise manipulate the brain of a person to lock them into a pleased or euphoric state, but not without fundamentally changing how their mind works. And it’s entirely possible to apply logic to the situation, because until the brainwashing is complete you’re still dealing with humans, and that implies things. For example, in the stated hypothetical paradise, nobody will ever interact with anyone else. Because people can’t be guaranteed to continue to get along together for as long as they have free will - and your free will means that you might will something I don’t want you to will. So people would always be kept separate so their fists wouldn’t reach past the ends of each others’ noses and they wouldn’t disagree about what Netflix show to watch. The OP also states that despite being forever away from real people, people could surround themselves with fake people - fake people who would always behave they way the person likes, despite allegedly not having wills. Of course their wills have to come from _somewhere,_ so _somebody_ is having a will, but the fact that they always act in a way responsive to the former human’s will suggests that they are actually being controlled by a sentient artificial intelligence that is reading the person’s mind and conforming the fake peoples’ behaviors to their wishes. So their party guests are always polite and fun and leave at a good time, their family members are always on time and never show up drunk, and their torture victims scream and cry in terror but never subdue the human and escape. All the fake people play the roles given to them by the controlling intelligence - basically like puppets. According to the OP you’d never be able to forget that your conveniently helpful and loving and non-argumentive wife is a fake, which is kind of a downer, but whatever. We can also conclude that life in this paradise will always feel extremely unfulfilling, because there can never be any sense of accomplishment, because you get whatever you want without effort. And if you actually did do something the hard way, like a self-imposed challenge in a video game, it would be ultimately meaningless because you’d know that the only people to admire your pointless endeavor are the hollow puppet sycophants you’re surrounded by. It sounds incredibly tedious. Fortunately it should be possible to dismiss all the puppets and watch Netflix on repeat for eternity. Yay! See? Thinking about things is fun! ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2022, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-death-still-be-bad-if-a-positive-afterlife-existed/960177/78 "2022-03-01T06:16:36Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > it would be ultimately meaningless because you’d know that the only people to admire your pointless endeavor are the hollow puppet sycophants you’re surrounded by. It sounds incredibly tedious. You really only get satisfaction from a thing when you earn the admiration of others? Weird. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2022, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-death-still-be-bad-if-a-positive-afterlife-existed/960177/79 "2022-03-01T06:23:56Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > You really only get satisfaction from a thing when you earn the admiration of others? Weird. It works that way for some people. Social media is a thing. Of course it may not even be possible to do a self-imposed challenge at all since the universe is constantly conforming itself to your will. If you decide that rather than teleporting to your destination you will hop the thousand miles on one foot blindfolded along a tightrope suspended over running woodchippers, the universe will never allow you to stumble or get tired or to feel like it was actually a challenge. Because if you could fail, you might fail, and if you did you might feel bad or end up in a woodchipper. So you can’t even impress _yourself,_ much less other people. Nothing that you do can have any significance, because it can be done or undone with a thought. So you’d better enjoy passively experiencing things, be they sunsets or Netflix, because that’s all you’ve got worth doing, forever. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2022, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-death-still-be-bad-if-a-positive-afterlife-existed/960177/80 "2022-03-01T06:28:55Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > and if you did you might feel bad or end up in a woodchipper. So what? You get a few moments of pain, a “You Died” screen, and get to try again. Lots of people pay $60 for that experience today. > [@begbert2](#): > > So you’d better enjoy passively experiencing things, be they sunsets or Netflix, because that’s all you’ve got worth doing, forever. That’s probably all you’ve got anyway. Free will is a nonsensical concept, but it sure _feels_ real, and that’s probably good enough. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-death-still-be-bad-if-a-positive-afterlife-existed/960177.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-death-still-be-bad-if-a-positive-afterlife-existed/960177.md?page=5)