# Would gun posession on average lessen agression? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 19, 2013, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-gun-posession-on-average-lessen-agression/661348 "2013-06-19T07:23:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-gun-posession-on-average-lessen-agression/661348/1 "2013-06-19T07:23:48Z")
In ethology, or the science of animal behavior, I learnt that doves are much more agressive then wolves. Wolves have claws and teeth and could do each other serious damage in a fight. Both wolves might gt hurt or die. So, for the species wolf as a whole, it is necessary to develop rituals and hormone fluctuations that allow for for challenge, defeat, and peaceful hierarchie with the alpha wolf actign as a peace keeper who curbs the fights lower in the hierarchy. Pigeons could not really harm each other much. Therefore, evolution lets them be as agressive as they want. While it is [difficult to translate observed facts to whole species of animal, let alone to humans,](http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/22502/1/3208Burkhardt.pdf) I wondered how that translated to humans. If you look at the level of agression on the anonymous internet, where no-one can harm anyone, well… let’s say it shows how human agression looks like if it goes unchecked. Now, for the other end of the scale, let’s discuss an American state that is as pro gun people want it: everyone is armed and has learned to use their firearms. Now, would people be more polite, more pleasant to each other in that culture? Where would the normal agression go? [Oh, here’s a nice article on animal and human agression.](http://rint.rechten.rug.nl/rth/dennen/a-ethol.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-gun-posession-on-average-lessen-agression/661348/2 "2013-06-19T07:38:25Z")
I dunno, but from where I’m looking, the US seems to be on the upper end of aggressiveness, so it’s certainly not a correlation point… On the flipside, everyone has access to knives all over the world. Maiming is pretty much just as bad as killing in terms of today’s societal norms (you certainly wouldn’t say, ah screw it, I’ll only lose a finger, let’s have at it). So the same pressure to be nice would still apply. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-gun-posession-on-average-lessen-agression/661348/3 "2013-06-19T08:01:27Z")
If humans universally possessed guns for 10,000 or so years continuously, that might actually have an effect. As it is, we’re stuck with instincts that evolved long before guns existed and don’t take them into account. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-gun-posession-on-average-lessen-agression/661348/4 "2013-06-19T11:57:39Z")
The single best thing you can do as part of gun ownership is go through training on THE LAW. Our Concealed Carry class (for my profession at the time) concentrated a lot on what you were and were not allowed to do while carrying a gun. Where your responsibilities lay, what you can be charged for. Combining this with my knowledge from self-defense classes (which likewise covered legal responsibilities and consequences) did a good job to instill in me that carrying a gun isn’t a cure-all to anything and I’m a goddamned fool if I even draw the thing in anything less than a full-on life threatening situation. And even then it may not be a good idea. Unfortunately, there are a lot of stupid and impulsive people out there, and I don’t want them carrying guns. So I am very happy with the status quo. ---
**Author:** ![Emtar\_KronJonDerSohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/58956e/32.png) [@Emtar\_KronJonDerSohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emtar_KronJonDerSohn)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-gun-posession-on-average-lessen-agression/661348/5 "2013-06-19T12:36:46Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > Now, for the other end of the scale, let’s discuss an American state that is as pro gun people want it: everyone is armed and has learned to use their firearms. This is a flawed assumption. “Pro gun people” are looking to preserve rights, not arm people. Would you assume that “pro choice people” want every pregnancy to result in abortion? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-gun-posession-on-average-lessen-agression/661348/6 "2013-06-19T15:51:20Z")
> [@Emtar\_KronJonDerSohn](#): > > This is a flawed assumption. “Pro gun people” are looking to preserve rights, not arm people. > > Would you assume that “pro choice people” want every pregnancy to result in abortion? Unfortunately, there are any number of people who (wrongly) do believe that both statements are true. That pro-gun people want to arm everyone including fetuses, and that pro-abortion people want everyone including men to have abortions. It is an unfortunate part of Human Nature that we often ascribe the worst motives to our enemies and engage in the most illogical thinking when we wish to demonize others. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-gun-posession-on-average-lessen-agression/661348/7 "2013-06-19T16:30:39Z")
The U.S. did engage in a brief experiment with the OP’s proposal in the late nineteenth century, particularly in the West. It was pretty much _ad hoc_ and certainly not controlled, so I am not sure that we can draw rigorous conclusions from it, but I note that it was not long after it began that various communities in the West began passing ordinances that restricted the arming of the population. A similar situation occurred among a specific social class in Europe with regards to bladed weapons. And, indeed, a set of formal rituals surrounding “courtesy” did develop in order to reduce the amount of outright bloodshed that occurred. However, dueling among the upper classes never carried over to an outright reduction of violence in society. For this particular proposal, Heinlein appears to have been entirely wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-gun-posession-on-average-lessen-agression/661348/8 "2013-06-19T19:57:00Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The U.S. did engage in a brief experiment with the OP’s proposal in the late nineteenth century, particularly in the West. It was pretty much _ad hoc_ and certainly not controlled, so I am not sure that we can draw rigorous conclusions from it, but I note that it was not long after it began that various communities in the West began passing ordinances that restricted the arming of the population. Your post made me look up that Cracked article again on [myths about the Wild West](http://www.cracked.com/article_20372_5-ridiculous-myths-everyone-believes-about-wild-west.html). > [@](#): > > … gun control laws may have actually been stricter back in the 19th and early 20th century than they are now, especially in the West. In the beginning, there was definitely gun violence, as there was neither standardized law nor a good way to enforce it, but the Wild West didn’t stay wild forever. > As towns formed and communities grew, the need for and tolerance of handguns started to fall. Starting in 1878, some 25 years into the westward expansion, action was finally taken – even places as wild as Dodge City started posting signs (to regulate arms)… > > In fact, the gunfight at the O.K. Corral was caused by one gang being unwilling to abide by the anti-firearm rule of Tombstone. > … six-shooters weren’t the favorite. They were little more than a weapon of last resort. Shotguns and rifles were the preferred weapons, having both the power and the range to put down a mountain lion or a card-cheating son of a bitch. But who would ever want to watch a Western where cowboys were meeting at high noon to shoot each other in the face with huge shotguns? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-gun-posession-on-average-lessen-agression/661348/9 "2013-06-19T21:46:46Z")
> [@Emtar\_KronJonDerSohn](#): > > This is a flawed assumption. “Pro gun people” are looking to preserve rights, not arm people. This isn’t true in all cases > **[Tiny Southwest Colo. Town Makes Gun Ownership Mandatory](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/nucla-colo-passes-ordinan_n_3306189)** > > Tiny Southwest Colo. Town Makes Gun Ownership Mandatory [http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/03/09/us-communities-seek-to-require-gun-ownership/](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/03/09/us-communities-seek-to-require-gun-ownership/) Admittedly they aren’t the majority of gun rights activists but they appear to be more prevalent than pro choice people advocating laws for mandatory abortions ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-gun-posession-on-average-lessen-agression/661348/10 "2013-06-19T22:25:28Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > If humans universally possessed guns for 10,000 or so years continuously, that might actually have an effect. As it is, we’re stuck with instincts that evolved long before guns existed and don’t take them into account. Good point, though the result of this experiment might not work out the way we might guess. 😉 > [@tomndebb](#): > > The U.S. did engage in a brief experiment with the OP’s proposal in the late nineteenth century, particularly in the West. > > For this particular proposal, Heinlein appears to have been entirely wrong. You beat me to it, on both counts. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-gun-posession-on-average-lessen-agression/661348/11 "2013-06-19T22:36:39Z")
> [@Emtar\_KronJonDerSohn](#): > > This is a flawed assumption. “Pro gun people” are looking to preserve rights, not arm people. No; as a rule they want to eliminate rights. “Pro-gun” almost always goes along with being anti-free speech, anti-privacy, anti-freedom of pretty much any kind. It’s GUNS! GUNS! GUNS! and nothing else. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-gun-posession-on-average-lessen-agression/661348/12 "2013-06-19T22:43:06Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No; as a rule they want to eliminate rights. “Pro-gun” almost always goes along with being anti-free speech, anti-privacy, anti-freedom of pretty much any kind. It’s GUNS! GUNS! GUNS! and nothing else. Let’s leave the off-topic rhetoric for a different thread, please. This goes for everyone who feels the need to explain what “pro-gun” REALLY means. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Emtar\_KronJonDerSohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/58956e/32.png) [@Emtar\_KronJonDerSohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emtar_KronJonDerSohn)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-gun-posession-on-average-lessen-agression/661348/13 "2013-06-19T23:45:15Z")
I apologize to the OP and good faith participants for any off topic rhetoric and politely withdraw from the thread. EKJdS ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-gun-posession-on-average-lessen-agression/661348/14 "2013-06-23T23:27:33Z")
People at gun ranges tend to be very polite to one another. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-gun-posession-on-average-lessen-agression/661348/15 "2013-06-23T23:43:08Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > If humans universally possessed guns for 10,000 or so years continuously, that might actually have an effect. As it is, we’re stuck with instincts that evolved long before guns existed and don’t take them into account. I agree. Wolves are less aggressive towards each other because they evolved with claws and fangs. Making humans more dangerous towards each other via technology would not suddenly trigger (pun intended) some dormant non-aggression gene in us. And the proof is that it hasn’t happened - we’ve been artificially dangerous since we began throwing rocks and whacking each other with clubs. But history has shown we have no hesitation about killing each other with our new weapons. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-gun-posession-on-average-lessen-agression/661348/16 "2013-06-23T23:47:56Z")
I don’t think guns do anything to increase or decrease aggression in people, just the result of that aggression. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-gun-posession-on-average-lessen-agression/661348/17 "2013-06-24T07:08:34Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > If humans universally possessed guns for 10,000 or so years continuously, that might actually have an effect. As it is, we’re stuck with instincts that evolved long before guns existed and don’t take them into account. Yes, and furthermore, that effect would come about by means of selection events of a generally unhappy nature.