# Would Heinlein's "Coventry" work? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 11, 2006, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-heinleins-coventry-work/360252 "2006-06-11T00:27:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-heinleins-coventry-work/360252/81 "2006-06-14T04:52:25Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > Is the “first racist” one _Fifth Column_ ? That’s the one I was thinking of. Not really Heinlein’s fault, of course, since he was working from Campbell’s outline. You have an interesting slant on it. I’ll have to re-read it and see if I agree. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-heinleins-coventry-work/360252/82 "2006-06-14T05:05:15Z")
I’m assuming you guys mean _Sixth Column_ (which my copy–used from probably the 1970s–has gone to the title _The Day After Tomorrow_.) I’ve never really liked the book, but I can’t put my finger on it. I don’t think it’s “racist” or the like, I think I don’t like it for the same reason I just vaguely don’t like nuclear warfare stories–probably too many decades between when I was reading it and when it was first written (we’re talking like 60 years here.) ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-heinleins-coventry-work/360252/83 "2006-06-14T10:56:16Z")
And Heinlein intentionally tried (with some success to) “de-racist” Campbell’s ideas. He also introduced a Japanese American character who was the only sympathetic character in the book. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-heinleins-coventry-work/360252/84 "2006-06-14T11:26:15Z")
**Fenris** is, of course, saying it all without my help, but if **Happy Clam** is not already familiar with Spider Robinson’s GOH speech/essay/filk song “Rah Rah R.A.H.,” he should read it. I don’t agree with every word of it (there’s a “that,” two “ofs,” and a couple of adverbs I object to ;)), but as an example of polemic against the sort of argumentation **HC** has been proferring here, it’s classic. Final point is: Heinlein tries to make his societies _believable_. None of them are Potemkin villages with the unpleasant realities covered by a utopian mask, nor dystopias erected to be knocked down. As such, they are supported by at least some of the characters, and rational reasons why they got where they are are advanced. But in politics as in everything else, Heinlein’s message is _ **Think it through first. Then have the courage of your convictions to stand by that which you’ve decided is worth your life, fortune, and sacred honor.** _ In _Grumbles from the Grave_ he devotes much of a long letter to explaining that _Stranger_ was not a book that suggests answers so much as it was one that asked questions: particularly the questions that were off limits to the 1950s Establishment. Having been a child in the 50s and witnessed the Crazy Years, good and bad, as I grew up and older, I agree wholeheartedly with his point. There’s a short passage put in the mouth of Prof. Bernardo de la Paz, Interim President of the Lunar Republic, speaking to the Constitutional Convention of the new republic, in _The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress_, that echoes the _Grumbles/Stranger_ letter about politics. And that, I think, is key to what he has to say on the subject. Finally, remember that we have a continuum of his views from 1938 until the early 1980s, and his views changed over the years. In particular, he and Leslyn were idealist Leftists before World War II, and Ginny reshaped his views over the 40 years of their marriage. (IMO, it’s no coincidence that the majority of Heinlein’s characters have their personal worldviews shaped in part by their relationship with their spouses/SOs – so, I think, did their creator.) The idealism of _For Us the Living_ and _If This Goes On…_ was transmogrified into the _sauve qui peut_ of _Friday_ and _To Sail Beyond the Sunset_. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-heinleins-coventry-work/360252/85 "2006-06-14T11:47:23Z")
I read somewhere that medieval society in Morocco was divided into civilized areas where the state held sway, and mountainous areas called “the land of disobedience” where dissenters could flee to escape state power. Apparently Morocco was set up so that people could opt out of the system. This sounds exactly like it’s a fantasy dreamed up by anarchist writer Hakim Bey, but I’m pretty sure I read actual historical accounts of this. I wonder how it could have worked in practicality, though. Areas like the Rif or the Atlas that were not controlled by the state would have been tribal territory, so I imagine anyone moving there would be subject to tribal law. Doesn’t sound very anarchist that way. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-heinleins-coventry-work/360252/86 "2006-06-14T12:49:46Z")
**Sixth Column** is probably my least favorite book, not for the racism but for the hokey cheap fix reminiscent of poor space opera rather than the well thought out plots I expect from Mr. Heinlein. I definitely blame the faults of the book on Campbell’s plot because it read like a Campbell plot. I hate the knee-jerk, Heinlein was a fascist because he wrote Starship Troopers crap I have heard over the years. I got called a fascist in HS for explaining the theory of citizenship described in the book and saying it sounded like a good idea. The public service aspect of it would have included things like Peace Corps and Job Corps. This thread has been a great read. Fenris and Silenus, like Oakminster, I am not used to being around people far more knowledgeable of Heinlein’s works than I am. I love your insights into his works. Jim ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-heinleins-coventry-work/360252/87 "2006-06-14T13:10:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Sixth Column is probably my least favorite book, not for the racism but for the hokey cheap fix reminiscent of poor space opera rather than the well thought out plots I expect from Mr. Heinlein. I definitely blame the faults of the book on Campbell’s plot because it read like a Campbell plot. If you’;re interested, they finally found Campbell’s original story, **All** , that provided the plot for **Sixth Column/The Day After Tomorrow**. It was published in the volume **The Space Beyond** back in the 1970s. It’s a very different work. I went through it looking for similarities, and, aside from the very general plot and the exact names of the “gods” (Campbell and Heinlein use exactly the same ones – either Campbell read 'em over the phone to Heinlein, or he fixed them up in the manuscript) there isn’t a heckuva lot. Campbell’s work is tedious reading. I’ve tried liking Campbell’s stuff, I really have, but aside from the short story “Who Goes There?”, I hate his writing. Heinlein’s is incomparably better. I’ve reads lots of things worse than SC/TDAT. The wish-fulfillment situation is hokey and alien to him, but the way he handles it is pure Heinlein. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-heinleins-coventry-work/360252/88 "2006-06-14T14:15:57Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > **Fenris** is, of course, saying it all without my help, but if **Happy Clam** is not already familiar with Spider Robinson’s GOH speech/essay/filk song “Rah Rah R.A.H.,” he should read it. I don’t agree with every word of it (there’s a “that,” two “ofs,” and a couple of adverbs I object to ;)), but as an example of polemic against the sort of argumentation **HC** has been proferring here, it’s classic. I gotta disagree with you here, **Poly** … **Happy Clam** is NOT making the kind of argument that Robinson objects to. Which is why it’s so much fun discussing this with him. **HC** didn’t use “facist” to mean “I think he’s mean”, he gives specific examples, and he’s distinguished between the characters and the author. In other words, he’s the anti-Panshin. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-heinleins-coventry-work/360252/89 "2006-06-14T14:27:38Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > If you’;re interested, they finally found Campbell’s original story, **All** , that provided the plot for **Sixth Column/The Day After Tomorrow**. It was published in the volume **The Space Beyond** back in the 1970s. > > It’s a very different work. I went through it looking for similarities, and, aside from the very general plot and the exact names of the “gods” (Campbell and Heinlein use exactly the same ones – either Campbell read 'em over the phone to Heinlein, or he fixed them up in the manuscript) there isn’t a heckuva lot. Campbell’s work is tedious reading. I’ve tried liking Campbell’s stuff, I really have, but aside from the short story “Who Goes There?”, I hate his writing. Heinlein’s is incomparably better. I’ve reads lots of things worse than SC/TDAT. The wish-fulfillment situation is hokey and alien to him, but the way he handles it is pure Heinlein. My guess would be Campbell invented them and gave them to Heinlein. And Campbell was always fond of the “Secret order of scientists disguised as priests” thing. Heh–if you made it through “All”, you’ve got more patience than me–I’ve never gotten more than a few pages into it. I wrote a review for another site and quoted one of the opening lines: > [@John W. Campbell](#): > > “It is done,” said old John Reid slowly. “America, last to fall, is fallen to Asia.” He shook his massive white head slowly. "And by Fate’s unkindest mockery, we reach our goal, reach it at the end of a course as difficult and as long as the course Asia’s Nijihua led her men to reach their goal–the Asian World, simultaneous in birth with America’s Death. > > "Our goal is reached, Scientists. Before you the atom burns to silver light, silver energy, so safely, so controllably, so irresistably when we choose. The world needs it, needs it infinitely for peace as America needed it for war. > > “Now–shall we sell it to Nijihua–and the world? Give it to the world–and Nijihua?” “By fate’s unkindest mockery”?! :rolleyes: Blah. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-heinleins-coventry-work/360252/90 "2006-06-14T15:19:35Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > I’m assuming you guys mean _Sixth Column_ (which my copy–used from probably the 1970s–has gone to the title _The Day After Tomorrow_.) I’ve never really liked the book, but I can’t put my finger on it. I don’t think it’s “racist” or the like, I think I don’t like it for the same reason I just vaguely don’t like nuclear warfare stories–probably too many decades between when I was reading it and when it was first written (we’re talking like 60 years here.) :smack: You’re right; that’s the title. As it happens, I didn’t like it much either. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-heinleins-coventry-work/360252/91 "2006-06-14T15:23:42Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > As an aside, I’m pretty sure pariahs were Jews…there was one comment… Just to confirm it, there was a comment about a “strong Roman nose,” and later on the pariah army was refered to as “Joshua’s Army.” ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Clam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3bc359/32.png) [@Happy\_Clam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Clam)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-heinleins-coventry-work/360252/92 "2006-06-14T16:29:49Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > I gotta disagree with you here, **Poly** … **Happy Clam** is NOT making the kind of argument that Robinson objects to. Which is why it’s so much fun discussing this with him. **HC** didn’t use “facist” to mean “I think he’s mean”, he gives specific examples, and he’s distinguished between the characters and the author. In other words, he’s the anti-Panshin. 😉 Thank you, I didn’t think much of Panshin’s essay either (as you said, he seems to lack an understanding of fascism, either in the political or historical sense). I’d also like to point out that I heartily dislike the use of “fascist” as a term of abuse- indeed, I’ve started a GD thread on that topic in the past. Looking over the argument you’ve put forward, I think I agree that the society of _ST_ is neither fascist, nor does it possess facistic elements and more than it possesses those of socialism or liberalism. I’d always thought that the whole idea of “struggle strengthens” (common in both Italian and German fascism) was also present in ST. However, I’m now convinced I was incorrect. The World Government, or whatever you call it, is militiaristic, authoritarian and corporatist, but that fits it more as a Conservative (in the sense of the political ideology) than a fascist one. There’s a lot of material to address, so I’ll talk about the “Heinlein elitist” argument in my next post. Btw, I am also greatly enjoying this discussion :). ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-heinleins-coventry-work/360252/93 "2006-06-14T17:13:12Z")
> [@Happy Clam](#): > > Thank you, I didn’t think much of Panshin’s essay either (as you said, he seems to lack an understanding of fascism, either in the political or historical sense). I’d also like to point out that I heartily dislike the use of “fascist” as a term of abuse- indeed, I’ve started a GD thread on that topic in the past. > > Looking over the argument you’ve put forward, I think I agree that the society of _ST_ is neither fascist, nor does it possess facistic elements and more than it possesses those of socialism or liberalism. I’d always thought that the whole idea of “struggle strengthens” (common in both Italian and German fascism) was also present in ST. However, I’m now convinced I was incorrect. The World Government, or whatever you call it, is militiaristic, authoritarian and corporatist, but that fits it more as a Conservative (in the sense of the political ideology) than a fascist one. There’s a lot of material to address, so I’ll talk about the “Heinlein elitist” argument in my next post. Btw, I am also greatly enjoying this discussion :). And having reread your comments in the light of **Fenris** ’s response, let me tender you my apologies for my misunderstanding of your approach. May I suggest “statist” in the as-opposed-to-libertarianism sense as a useful adjective for further pursuing the political aspect of this discussion? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-heinleins-coventry-work/360252/94 "2006-06-14T17:21:28Z")
> [@Happy Clam](#): > > The World Government, or whatever you call it, is militiaristic, authoritarian and corporatist, but that fits it more as a Conservative (in the sense of the political ideology) than a fascist one. It’s also genocidal and Social Darwinist ( for lack of a better term ) on a species scale; IIRC the argument for war with the Bugs was “We like the same kind of planet, therefore it’s a law of nature that one must kill the other”. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-heinleins-coventry-work/360252/95 "2006-06-14T18:14:36Z")
I don’t recall any real reason for the war being stated. IIRC, Johnny mentions that during the course of his training the situation went from “Peace” to “Conflict” then to “War” when BA got hammered. I don’t remember a Social Darwinist argument at all. (Note: I am at school and my copy of ST is at home.) Not that RAH didn’t make that argument in other books; I just don’t recall it in this one. But even if he did make it, so what? If it comes down to a conflict beteen Humans and another species, I pick Humans. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-heinleins-coventry-work/360252/96 "2006-06-14T18:25:19Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > It’s also genocidal and Social Darwinist ( for lack of a better term ) on a species scale; IIRC the argument for war with the Bugs was “We like the same kind of planet, therefore it’s a law of nature that one must kill the other”. My memory was bad, but was that official policy or just one of the Sgt’s talking? I heard an Older Chief ‘udder’ this wonderful quote; “We should have just nuked all the gooks, eventually we’ll have to do it anyway”. His saying this, did not make it the US Navy’s policy. As far as the war starting. I thought the Bugs nuked Buenos Aires? Jim ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-heinleins-coventry-work/360252/97 "2006-06-14T19:02:20Z")
I think that was Juan’s conclusion: the Bugs _can’t_ be reasoned with, they don’t see us as intelligent 'cause we’re not a hive-mind like them. Talking to one of our indivduals would be like talking to a toe on a human and since we both need the same sort of planets, it’s them or us. (Sounds like a good conclusion to me). IIRC one of the three battle-sequences was an abortive attempt to capture one of the “thinking” caste in part in hopes that we could communicate. The war was going on long before Juan joined the story–Buenos Ares wasn’t nuked until about 1/2 through the book and that finally convinced most people that there really WAS a war on, even if it was far away. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-heinleins-coventry-work/360252/98 "2006-06-14T19:54:42Z")
> [@What Exit?](#): > > My memory was bad, but was that official policy or just one of the Sgt’s talking? Actually, I’m not sure; it’s been years since I read it. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-heinleins-coventry-work/360252/99 "2006-06-14T20:00:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Thank you, I didn’t think much of Panshin’s essay either (as you said, he seems to lack an understanding of fascism, either in the political or historical sense). I’d also like to point out that I heartily dislike the use of “fascist” as a term of abuse- indeed, I’ve started a GD thread on that topic in the past. At the risk of inviting abuse upon myself, I have to admit that I _don’t_ dislike Panshin’s book. I bought my copy right from his hand at a WorldCon many years ago. It’s been a while since I read it, but my recollection (which could be faulty) is that he doesn’t call Heinlein a “fascist”. that sounds like a rabid anti-Heinleinist, which, I maintain, Panshin is not. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-heinleins-coventry-work/360252/100 "2006-06-14T20:01:40Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > Actually, I’m not sure; it’s been years since I read it. Page 175: “We needed to learn more about Bug psychology. Must we wipe out every Bug in the galaxy? Or was it possible to trounce them and impose a peace?” Must have been one of the Sergeants, because Juan and official policy seem to think co-existance is possible. After the Bugs have been beaten, of course. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-heinleins-coventry-work/360252.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-heinleins-coventry-work/360252.md?page=6)