# Would illegal immigration be as big of a problem if the incentives were eliminated? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 10, 2015, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775 "2015-07-10T15:33:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/1 "2015-07-10T15:33:47Z")
Rather than wasting time securing borders and building walls would it make more sense to eliminate the things that illegal immigrants are seeking in the US? It seems the basic things they hope to find here are jobs, housing, medical assistance, and education. If law enforcement made it a priority to crack down on the enablers would it make a difference? Employers found using illegal workers- Hefty fines and jail time. Property owners and landlords found housing illegals- Hefty fines and jail time. Hospitals/medical centers found aiding illegals- Fines and pulled funding. Schools/educators found educating illegals- Fines, pulled funding, lose jobs. Now granted this wouldn’t stop someone like the SanFran shooter who is probably a homeless drug dealer, but for the masses seeking to build a life here would it have any effect if there wasn’t anything here for them? Or do they have nothing to lose anyway and would be better off jobless/homeless in the US rather than a crappy life in Mexico? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/2 "2015-07-10T15:35:56Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > Rather than wasting time securing borders and building walls would it make more sense to eliminate the things that illegal immigrants are seeking in the US? > It seems the basic things they hope to find here are jobs, housing, medical assistance, and education. > If law enforcement made it a priority to crack down on the enablers would it make a difference? > Employers found using illegal workers- Hefty fines and jail time. > Property owners and landlords found housing illegals- Hefty fines and jail time. > Hospitals/medical centers found aiding illegals- Fines and pulled funding. > Schools/educators found educating illegals- Fines, pulled funding, lose jobs. > > Now granted this wouldn’t stop someone like the SanFran shooter who is probably a homeless drug dealer, but for the masses seeking to build a life here would it have any effect if there wasn’t anything here for them? > > Or do they have nothing to lose anyway and would be better off jobless/homeless in the US rather than a crappy life in Mexico? This would absolutely have a huge impact. It was basically Romney’s plan: remove the incentives and people will 1) self-depot and 2) be less apt to come in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/3 "2015-07-10T15:39:11Z")
You would have doctors refuse to see sick people? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/4 "2015-07-10T15:41:06Z")
I don’t think housing and education are that important to most of them - at least before they get to the US. These are people who walk for days across deserts to get here. And let’s be reasonable: _nobody_ is going to vote for legislation that will result in prosecution of medical providers for aiding undocumented workers. Employers who hire them? Sure. ETA: kind of ninja’d. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/5 "2015-07-10T15:42:02Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > Would illegal immigration be as big of a problem if the incentives were eliminated? > > Employers found using illegal workers- Hefty fines and jail time. (post shortened) I don’t believe jail time would be required, but illegal aliens come to the U.S. for jobs. No jobs = far, far fewer illegal aliens. The Cartel mules, drug dealers, thieves, and muggers, would still make the trip. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/6 "2015-07-10T15:50:30Z")
The only way to change things would be to make America so miserable that nobody would go there For a while, there was a thriving route through Sudan and Egypt used by Eritrean migrants and refugees hoping to get to Israel. Criminal gangs popped up in the area that specialized in kidnapping migrants, calling their relatives, and then subjecting them to the most horrific torture imaginable until the relatives sent a random. After the money was received, the migrant would be sometimes be released, sometimes killed, and sometimes just dumped in the desert (where they may well be re-kidnapped). Upon arriving in Israel, they were often jailed indefinitely. All of this was common knowledge. People knew they stood a good chance of being raped, tortured and maybe killed. They knew they would quite likely end up in an Israeli prison. But they still went. People gonna migrate. Wherever there is hopelessness, people are going to pack up and leave. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/7 "2015-07-10T15:53:24Z")
I’ve always thought this would be a great tool to use to fight illegal immigration. However, it puts the onus of verifying citizenship on possibly innocent employers and service providers and I think that would be unfair. If it can be proven that someone deliberately and knowingly hired someone like that though, I’d be perfectly happy throwing the book at them. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/8 "2015-07-10T16:06:58Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I’ve always thought this would be a great tool to use to fight illegal immigration. However, it puts the onus of verifying citizenship on possibly innocent employers and service providers and I think that would be unfair. > > If it can be proven that someone deliberately and knowingly hired someone like that though, I’d be perfectly happy throwing the book at them. Yup. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/9 "2015-07-10T16:13:00Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > The only way to change things would be to make America so miserable that nobody would go there This isn’t close to true. If did things like threw employers in jail who hired illegals removed carrots like allowing them to qualify for in-state tuition, and changed the law to disqualify from automatic citizenship those born here to parents who are are illegal, the number of illegals here would plummet. Add things like a much more secure border and enforcing the laws we do have on the books already and there would be very little change to the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/10 "2015-07-10T16:18:34Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > This isn’t close to true. If did things like threw employers in jail who hired illegals removed carrots like allowing them to qualify for in-state tuition, and changed the law to disqualify from automatic citizenship those born here to parents who are are illegal, the number of illegals here would plummet. Add things like a much more secure border and enforcing the laws we do have on the books already and there would be very little change to the U.S. Creating an unemployable, uneducable underclass counts a pretty big change in my book. You really want children that can’t be educated, that can’t become citizens or get a job, whose only skill is dodging ICE raids, growing up in the US? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/11 "2015-07-10T16:20:20Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I’ve always thought this would be a great tool to use to fight illegal immigration. However, it puts the onus of verifying citizenship on possibly innocent employers and service providers and I think that would be unfair. > > If it can be proven that someone deliberately and knowingly hired someone like that though, I’d be perfectly happy throwing the book at them. You mean, like the[free to employer system E-Verify](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Verify) that is designed to prevent illegal aliens from obtaining employment illegally in the United States? Use of this system would dramatically reduce employment for undocumented workers. Some background: > [@](#): > > According to the DHS website, **more than 482,692 employers now use E-Verify.** [2] Over 1,400 companies enroll in the program every week.[3] According to DHS, in 2011 a random sample of E-Verify users was surveyed on satisfaction with the program. DHS called the results “outstanding” noting that E-Verify received an overall customer satisfaction rating of 85, which is “based on the American Customer Satisfaction Index (ACSI), the national indicator of customer evaluations of the quality of goods and services available to U.S. residents.” DHS notes that E-Verify’s score of 85 is a three-point increase from the 2010 survey and that E-Verify is “a trailblazer when compared to its federal government counterparts” because “E-Verify’s score is 20 points above the current federal government average.”[4] > > … > > In 2011, the Supreme Court of the U.S. struck down a lawsuit contending that Arizona’s law, as a state law, was pre-empted by federal law, effectively verifying that states may constitutionally mandate the use of E-Verify.[18] There are several state laws regarding the requirement and **prohibition of E-Verify for employers**. According to a 2012 survey by the Center for Immigration Studies, 16 states require use of E-Verify in some form. The survey found that six states have laws requiring all or nearly all businesses to use E-Verify to determine employment eligibility: Arizona, Mississippi, South Carolina, Alabama, Georgia, and North Carolina. Five states require use of E-Verify by public employers and all or most public contractors: Indiana, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Virginia, and Missouri. Three states require only public contractors to use E-Verify: Louisiana, Minnesota, and Pennsylvania. Idaho only requires public employers to use E-Verify, while Florida only requires it for agencies under direction of the governor. Tennessee, Colorado, and Utah encourage use of E-Verify, but allow for alternative means of employment verification. An E-Verify-only mandate in Utah is contingent on the state’s effort to create a state-level guestworker program. **The survey also found that some states have moved in the opposite direction, limiting or discouraging use of E-Verify: California, Rhode Island, and Illinois.** [19] (my bold) A challenge is that many employers don’t use the tools available. I-9s are required by law, but the verification of the information presented on the I-9 is voluntary in many cases. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/12 "2015-07-10T17:17:16Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > This isn’t close to true. If did things like threw employers in jail who hired illegals removed carrots like allowing them to qualify for in-state tuition, and changed the law to disqualify from automatic citizenship those born here to parents who are are illegal, the number of illegals here would plummet. Add things like a much more secure border and enforcing the laws we do have on the books already and there would be very little change to the U.S. I think the point is this: People will find a way around any restriction if the incentive is great enough. The OP is asking if the incentives were eliminated, would people no longer find it worth their trouble to find their way around these restrictions. Probably yes, but the only way the incentives would be low enough would be if America would be as miserable as the countries the immigrants are escaping from. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/13 "2015-07-10T17:35:28Z")
I really doubt many immigrants, legal or otherwise, move to the US so their kids can get an education. Latin American countries have schools, funnily enough, and the schools actually teach in the mother tongue of most of the people in question. India and many African countries actually do have a problem with terrible schools, but most of the immigrants from those countries (aside from, e.g. Somali political refugees) tend to be highly educated anyway. People immigrate (legally or illegally) to the US almost entirely because of job opportunities. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/14 "2015-07-10T17:36:12Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Creating an unemployable, uneducable underclass counts a pretty big change in my book. You really want children that can’t be educated, that can’t become citizens or get a job, whose only skill is dodging ICE raids, growing up in the US? They wouldn’t be growing up in the U.S… That’s the point of discouraging illegal alien immigration. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/15 "2015-07-10T17:37:51Z")
I suspect that within about 20 years, the collapse in fertility rates across Latin America is going to have a powerful impact on the labor market there- fewer people entering the workforce, so wages will go up, and people will have less of a reason to emigrate. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/16 "2015-07-10T17:38:06Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I’ve always thought this would be a great tool to use to fight illegal immigration. However, it puts the onus of verifying citizenship on possibly innocent employers and service providers and I think that would be unfair. > > If it can be proven that someone deliberately and knowingly hired someone like that though, I’d be perfectly happy throwing the book at them. I agree. Making landlords responsible for verifying the citizenship of renters seems like an unfair burden. Employers, maybe, but not landlords, doctors or teachers. But we could reduce illegal immigration significantly if we make it very hard to get jobs. And we’d also see some prices increase as a result. But that might be OK. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/17 "2015-07-10T17:39:33Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > The only way to change things would be to make America so miserable that nobody would go there. > > …People gonna migrate. Wherever there is hopelessness, people are going to pack up and leave. If there are no jobs for illegal aliens in the U.S., the illegal aliens are gonna migrate to somewhere else. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/18 "2015-07-10T17:40:55Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I don’t think housing and education are that important to most of them - at least before they get to the US. In my experience of talking to Latino immigrants in San Diego, mostly from Mexico, education was the largest single reason for coming to the US. The adults who immigrated knew that their lives would not be much better; their main motivation was to give their children a better future. I never heard anyone say a word about housing. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/19 "2015-07-10T17:51:55Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > They wouldn’t be growing up in the U.S… That’s the point of discouraging illegal alien immigration. Well, this isn’t something you can turn off like a light switch. Passing laws and ramping up enforcement of existing ones - that is, making life as hellish for illegal immigrants as possible - would have to occur in stages, over time. Meanwhile, immigrants would continue to enter the country, and continue to have children. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/20 "2015-07-10T17:59:59Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > The only way to change things would be to make America so miserable that nobody would go there That’s hardly the only way to change things. If the places illegal immigrants were coming from became places that had most of the opportunities available they are seeking here, then we would see a significant decline in people coming here illegally. I would offer Canada as an example - a huge common border that is largely unprotected but I’m not aware of a problem with an influx of illegal Canadians in the US. > [@Bone](#): > > I-9s are required by law, but the verification of the information presented on the I-9 is voluntary in many cases. Until E-Verify is made mandatory for all employers in the US there will be little change to the current situation. Apparently, green cards and other applicable IDs are notoriously easy to counterfeit and available for purchase. Even an employer who keeps meticulously up to date I-9s has no guarantee the documents presented by the prospective employee are genuine. If they look legitimate they are accepted. I would think an employer who utilizes E-Verify when it isn’t required would have greater difficulty finding employees for certain jobs, therefore there is little incentive to do more than require documents and keep a completed I-9 form on file for all employees. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775.md?page=2)