# Would illegal immigration be as big of a problem if the incentives were eliminated? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 10, 2015, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775 "2015-07-10T15:33:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/61 "2015-07-12T10:21:33Z")
Of the posts so far, #37 is most compelling to me. If people are willing to sneak into Australia, an island filled with huge deserts and the meanest animals on the planet, where if caught, they’ll be imprisoned indefinitely, then I don’t think anything can stop them from coming into this country as long as life here is halfway decent. If nothing else, they’ll need to go through on the way to Canada. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/62 "2015-07-12T10:32:30Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I’ve always thought this would be a great tool to use to fight illegal immigration. However, it puts the onus of verifying citizenship on possibly innocent employers and service providers and I think that would be unfair. > > If it can be proven that someone deliberately and knowingly hired someone like that though, I’d be perfectly happy throwing the book at them. I don’t know for the USA, but over here, it’s typically trivial to prove. Employers have to fill paperwork for instance to pay taxes on salary. If they don’t (and not paying taxes, or paying the worker under minimal wage is the whole point of hiring an illegal alien), they can be prosecuted. Just don’t go after anybody who took reasonable steps (say, asked for an ID) and didn’t do anything else illegal (like not paying taxes; etc…) But you can’t put a police officer behind each employer. That’s the main issue. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/63 "2015-07-12T20:52:08Z")
Could the US do anything realistic to increase the incentives for people to stay in Mexico? Its one thing to make things tough on people who come over, but what if somehow we can target the root of the problem and immigrants want to stay in Mexico? I’m sure we have a lot of trade with them already and are tied to them economically in a lot of ways. Can the US do more? Can the Mexican government be incentivized to do more? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/64 "2015-07-13T02:23:57Z")
Re. “eliminating reasons to immigrate illegaly”, back during the bubble the Spanish government detected a huge spike in illegal immigration from Latin America (it would have been hard to miss). They also detected, very quickly, that a lot of those people could immigrate legally. Thus, one of the mechanisms by which illegal immigration was reduced (and, for LA, quite drastically) was a big publicity campaign informing people in those countries of the ways in which they could immigrate legally. They still came - but they came with papers. They came knowing that the legal system was on their side. But that requires having mechanisms that make it possible to migrate legally, and a will to treat legal immigration as a positive. Too much of the dialectic in the US is about all inmigration being some sort of attack on the culture of the “melting pot”, because hey, it was ok that my grandparents got into the fondue but your grandchildren shouldn’t be able to say the same. Maybe making legal migration more accesible (not necessarily by introducting new pathways, but by making those available less agressively unfriendly and by making sure people can get the correct information) would help. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/65 "2015-07-13T03:13:12Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I don’t know for the USA, but over here, it’s typically trivial to prove. Employers have to fill paperwork for instance to pay taxes on salary. If they don’t (and not paying taxes, or paying the worker under minimal wage is the whole point of hiring an illegal alien), they can be prosecuted. > > Just don’t go after anybody who took reasonable steps (say, asked for an ID) and didn’t do anything else illegal (like not paying taxes; etc…) > > But you can’t put a police officer behind each employer. That’s the main issue. It has been mentioned earlier in the thread but, employers in the US are **required by Federal law** to fill out and keep on file an [I-9 form (PDF)](http://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/files/form/i-9.pdf) for every employee. On page 9 of the linked form you will see a list of documents that an employer may accept to verify an individual is eligible for employment. In the instructions found on page 3, under Section 2, point 1, will see that the employer is only required to examine the documents that are presented and _“determine if it reasonably appears to be genuine and to relate to the person presenting it.”_ The word “reasonably” is an important word here. As I mentioned in post #48 counterfeit ID is not that hard to buy if you want it. My understanding is these counterfeit IDs look very authentic, with bar codes, magnetic strips and embedded holograms. It’s unlikely most employers would know how to detect a fake ID of this type. Finally, in most states, once the employer has collected this information _he is not required to do anything with it_ other than file it away. There is no requirement to utilize a system such as E-Verify to check the authenticity of the documents. If they look genuine and have the individuals picture on it that is considered acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/66 "2015-07-13T10:53:47Z")
I have heard of some nasty people who will employ illegals for a certain time and right before they are scheduled to be paid, will turn them into INS. In other cases some people will rent them apartments, wait till they have accumulated some valuable possessions, then turn them into INS and keep their stuff. THAT needs to be stopped. I wish we could help Mexico become a better place to live and work but from my experience, the government there is so corrupt what little aid is sent only goes into the hands of political cronies. NAFTA in some cases made it worse because before NAFTA, a Mexican farmer could grow corn and beans and sell it locally whereas after N, cheap American imported grain put him out of business. So in many parts of Mexico you have a choice; 1. Live in poverty. 2. Work for the drug cartels. 3. Immigrate. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/67 "2015-07-13T12:56:10Z")
Well, it’s possible to some degree. I noticed that several of my Hispanic neighbors apparently up and left after a law was passed in my state that tried to outlaw any aid to illegals. Granted, they could basically go less than a hundred miles into another state. Leaving the entire USA is a more expensive and difficult project. But for local ethnic cleansing, it appeared to work. I think direct terrorization is even more effective. I suggest burning crosses and drive-by shootings. You know, since this is a discussion of potentially effective tactics unsullied by sentimental ideas of morality or fairness, right? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/68 "2015-07-13T13:11:03Z")
That said; yes, you can do that; yes, it has some effect, not total, but some; yes, we already do that to a fair degree; and yes, employers break those laws anyway. And there are still lots of undocumented aliens because of larger economic realities. You could send Mexico tens of billions in foreign aid over the next ten years to help crush the _coyote_ gangs and build up local infrastructure; that might work too. The question is, what are your countrymen willing to do to keep out those dang dirdy Meskins? And the truth is, not all that much. An awful lot of us have no objection to much higher Mexican immigration than there already is. The churches see lots of Christian brothers, the labor movement see organizable workers, and lots of gringos\*\*\* just don’t care.\*\*\* Why would I have a problem with an immigrant when I’m descended from immigrants? Illegal immigration is the fetish of a racist wing of our politics. The rest of us, right or left, aren’t likely to help anti-immigration laws get enforced because we deny your major premise. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/69 "2015-07-13T14:42:05Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Of the posts so far, #37 is most compelling to me. If people are willing to sneak into Australia, an island filled with huge deserts and the meanest animals on the planet, where if caught, they’ll be imprisoned indefinitely, then I don’t think anything can stop them from coming into this country as long as life here is halfway decent. > > If nothing else, they’ll need to go through on the way to Canada. Or they could stay in their own Central and South American countries until they are legally allowed into Canada. Or they could work to change a government that does little to stop the rapes of 80% of the illegal alien women traveling thru Mexico. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/70 "2015-07-13T14:52:23Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Illegal immigration is the fetish of a racist wing of our politics. The rest of us, right or left, aren’t likely to help anti-immigration laws get enforced because we deny your major premise. Are you saying that those that are against illegal immigration necessarily subscribe to racist politics? Which premise do you deny exactly? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/71 "2015-07-13T15:03:04Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > …Illegal immigration is the fetish of a racist wing of our politics. The rest of us, right or left, aren’t likely to help anti-immigration laws get enforced because we deny your major premise. (post shortened, underline added) “Illegal immigration” is immigration that is illegal. You, of course, can make the choice to ignore the laws you don’t like. That doesn’t make “illegal immigration” legal. You can also chose to call anyone who objects to “illegal immigration” a racist, but the term “illegal immigration” applies to all illegal immigrants. You can even deny that “illegal immigration” is illegal, or create “sanctuary cities” that ignore federal laws in order to allow a 7-time felon to migrate 5-times to San Fran resulting in the murder of a women walking near a pier. But I don’t believe that you actually speak for the rest of us, right or left. You’re entitled to your opinion. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/72 "2015-07-15T02:26:46Z")
I said what I meant and I meant what I said. “Illegal” covers a lot of ground. And an illegal immigrant is not strictly speaking a criminal, and certainly not in the usual sense of being a felon. It’s just someone without a visa. **ETA: And anti-immigration pols helped exacerbate that situation by denying guest workers even the option of a work visa.** And while you can argue that thou _personally_ are actually a terrific legalist, wildly authoritarian, or merely xenophobic, the fact remains that I’m from here in the USA, I know racism when I see it, and anti-illegal-immigration sentiment is historically and presently mainly associated with racism. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/73 "2015-07-15T02:28:16Z")
Wonder what would happen if the US government took this to the international level instead and fined Mexico a certain amount of money for every illegal immigrant that crossed the border into the US. It would put the burden of border security on the Mexican government instead of on the United States. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/74 "2015-07-15T02:30:57Z")
Let me turn it back on you: How much of a tax increase are you willing to pay to transfer funds to Mexico to raise salaries and opportunities there to USA levels? Any? That would alleviate a lot of the immigration pressure, and actually be humane. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/75 "2015-07-15T02:35:49Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Wonder what would happen if the US government took this to the international level instead and fined Mexico a certain amount of money for every illegal immigrant that crossed the border into the US. It would put the burden of border security on the Mexican government instead of on the United States. Under what authority can the United States issue fines to Mexico? What mechanism would we use to enforce those fines? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/76 "2015-07-15T02:38:30Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Under what authority can the United States issue fines to Mexico? What mechanism would we use to enforce those fines? Let the fines accumulate throughout the year and say that the fines must be paid by the end of every year. If the fines are not paid, then no visas, trade is suspended, tariffs will increase, flights are suspended, etc. Mexico, of course, can likewise fine the United States for any Americans who cross illegally into Mexico, although the United States is likely much more likely to be able to absorb such diplomatic retaliation than Mexico would be (to absorb American diplomatic retaliation). ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/77 "2015-07-15T02:48:20Z")
Is illegal immigration really worth crashing the entire economy for? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/78 "2015-07-15T03:01:37Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Let the fines accumulate throughout the year and say that the fines must be paid by the end of every year. If the fines are not paid, then no visas, trade is suspended, tariffs will increase, flights are suspended, etc. So, basically, we destroy Mexico’s economy, if they don’t do something about the border. Do you think the lack of a functional economy in Mexico is going to _decrease_ the number of Mexicans crossing into the US looking for work? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/79 "2015-07-15T13:35:07Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > I said what I meant and I meant what I said. Would you mind answering the clarifying questions in post #70 then? It’s unclear what you meant. You implied that being against illegal immigration was necessarily motivated by racism. Is that a fair interpretation? You then denied a premise - but you didn’t state what it was you were denying. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775/80 "2015-07-15T14:02:52Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Are you saying that those that are against illegal immigration necessarily subscribe to racist politics? Put it this way: If the illegal-immigration pressure were coming from Canada instead of Mexico, the Minutemen would not exist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-illegal-immigration-be-as-big-of-a-problem-if-the-incentives-were-eliminated/724775.md?page=5)