# Would insurgent SAM batteries in Ukraine be fair game for air strikes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 23, 2014, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-insurgent-sam-batteries-in-ukraine-be-fair-game-for-air-strikes/693824 "2014-07-23T06:28:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-insurgent-sam-batteries-in-ukraine-be-fair-game-for-air-strikes/693824/21 "2014-07-23T18:21:14Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > By accident. There are accidents, then there are ‘accidents’. This is definitely in the later category. We are talking about either gross incompetence or a deliberate act here…and at a certain point it becomes moot, since you shouldn’t give the keys to a weapons system like this to someone with the IQ of pocket lint. This plane was flying a known commercial route at freaking altitude. It’s nothing like the US/Iranian shoot down incident. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-insurgent-sam-batteries-in-ukraine-be-fair-game-for-air-strikes/693824/22 "2014-07-23T18:39:39Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > The signatories to that memorandum agreed not to invade the Ukraine, they did not agree to help an unelected Ukrainian government repress regions of their country which are seeking autonomy, or even to defend them against an outright invasion. What “unelected government” are you talking about? Ukraine’s government was elected. Elections were held in Ukraine on 25 May 2014. It certainly appears that Russia is in violation of that agreement. And the notion that the seperatists are an indigenous “autonomy” movement is a joke. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-insurgent-sam-batteries-in-ukraine-be-fair-game-for-air-strikes/693824/23 "2014-07-23T18:45:55Z")
Yes, yes. Now, all those in favor of bombing the Russian forces in Ukraine raise your hands. Because of course these are Russian forces, all the talk about autonomy and so on is maskirovka. Anyway, this chart, if accurate, might give some idea of what The Netherlands might do, all by itself: [https://sullydish.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/foriegn-markets.png](https://sullydish.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/foriegn-markets.png). Turns out the Russki Oligarchs have been parking a lot of money in banks in The Netherlands. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-insurgent-sam-batteries-in-ukraine-be-fair-game-for-air-strikes/693824/24 "2014-07-23T18:52:15Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > BTW, Ukraine is a [subject of a security memorandum](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances) by the US and UK, who offered guarantees of its territorial integrity in return for giving up the world’s third largest nuclear arsenal. If that doesn’t make Ukraine their business, then what on earth would? No, that’s not what the Budapest Memorandum says. It says that each country agreed it would not attack Ukraine in exchange for Ukraine giving up its nuclear arsenal. There was no pledge to defend Ukraine from an attack by another country. Russia, which also signed this agreement, is clearly violating it (although it’s made dubious claims to the contrary). But the United States and United Kingdom have not. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-insurgent-sam-batteries-in-ukraine-be-fair-game-for-air-strikes/693824/25 "2014-07-23T19:01:44Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > No, that’s not what the Budapest Memorandum says. It says that each country agreed it would not attack Ukraine in exchange for Ukraine giving up its nuclear arsenal. There was no pledge to defend Ukraine from an attack by another country. > > Russia, which also signed this agreement, is clearly violating it (although it’s made dubious claims to the contrary). But the United States and United Kingdom have not. The memo provides a basis for the non-defaulting parties to take action against the defaulting party, but does not require them to do so. It stops short of an actual military committment. Note, though, that absent the justification for the non-defaulting parties to act, the memo has no enforcement mechanism for “non nuclear” attacks on Ukraine. > [@](#): > > The Budapest Memorandum was negotiated as a political agreement. It refers to assurances, not defined, but less than a military guarantee of intervention.[1][2][12] According to Stephen MacFarlane, a professor of international relations “It gives signatories justification if they take action, but it does not force anyone to act in Ukraine.”[11] In the U.S. neither the George H. W. Bush administration nor the Clinton administration was prepared to give a military commitment to Ukraine, nor did they believe the U.S. Senate would ratify an international treaty, so the memorandum was agreed as a political agreement.[12] It is still, arguably, “their business”. Just whether or not they decide to take enforcement action is up to them. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-insurgent-sam-batteries-in-ukraine-be-fair-game-for-air-strikes/693824/26 "2014-07-23T20:27:34Z")
I think limited covert operations against rebel SAM batteries would be ironically appropriate and befitting, in a way. “Since you won’t admit to shooting down the airliner, we won’t admit to striking your SAM batteries.” ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-insurgent-sam-batteries-in-ukraine-be-fair-game-for-air-strikes/693824/27 "2014-07-23T23:36:20Z")
This is the 50th anniversary of the Gulf of Tonkin events. Remember that _other_ time we tried to intervene in a civil war that was none of our business? Probably on the wrong side, at that? Some people never seem to learn. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-insurgent-sam-batteries-in-ukraine-be-fair-game-for-air-strikes/693824/28 "2014-07-23T23:58:15Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > By accident. Yeah. “Oops! We accidentally used a SAM and it accidentally worked lol!” Jesus Christ, you seem to go out of your way to have the most obnoxious opinions. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-insurgent-sam-batteries-in-ukraine-be-fair-game-for-air-strikes/693824/29 "2014-07-24T00:04:03Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I think limited covert operations against rebel SAM batteries would be ironically appropriate and befitting, in a way. > > “Since you won’t admit to shooting down the airliner, we won’t admit to striking your SAM batteries.” That’s exactly what I was getting at in the OP, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-insurgent-sam-batteries-in-ukraine-be-fair-game-for-air-strikes/693824/30 "2014-07-24T00:18:40Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > This is the 50th anniversary of the Gulf of Tonkin events. Remember that _other_ time we tried to intervene in a civil war that was none of our business? Probably on the wrong side, at that? > > Some people never seem to learn. Things are more like they are now than they ever were before. History provides perspective, but the situations aren’t remotely the same. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-insurgent-sam-batteries-in-ukraine-be-fair-game-for-air-strikes/693824/31 "2014-07-24T00:26:24Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > This is the 50th anniversary of the Gulf of Tonkin events. Remember that _other_ time we tried to intervene in a civil war that was none of our business? Probably on the wrong side, at that? > > Some people never seem to learn. Gee, it’s too bad it’s not a round number anniversary of some Russian bullshit invasion. That would totally change the situation. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-insurgent-sam-batteries-in-ukraine-be-fair-game-for-air-strikes/693824/32 "2014-07-24T00:32:21Z")
If we want to get \*really \*technical, I think this would best be served by a highly surgical one-plane, one-hit mission. A B-2 pass involving 30 JDAMs on a swath of various targets would likely instantly announce American involvement - no other country would be capable of doing that. Bad idea. But a B-2 carefully and judiciously placing \*one \*small GBU-39 SDB (Small Diameter Bomb) on the very BUK launcher vehicle that was used to shoot down the Malaysia airliner? That would thoroughly creep the rebels out, while still leaving behind plausible deniability, especially if done at night, where it could be mistaken for the work of saboteurs upon inspection in the morning. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-insurgent-sam-batteries-in-ukraine-be-fair-game-for-air-strikes/693824/33 "2014-07-24T00:51:06Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > But a B-2 carefully and judiciously placing \*one \*small GBU-39 SDB (Small Diameter Bomb) on the very BUK launcher vehicle that was used to attack the Malaysia airliner? That would creep the rebels out while still leaving plausible deniability, especially if done at night, where it could be mistaken for the work of saboteurs upon inspection in the morning. You’re assuming it hasn’t moved since. But [there’s evidence]([http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/Intercepted](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/Intercepted) calls suggested a Russian SA-11 missile system - also known as BUK - had been transferred to the rebels, Mr Kerry said, and the US had seen a video of a launcher being moved back into Russia after flight MH17 crashed.) that it was trucked right back to Russia… where it quite probably came from in the first place. Money quote for the TL,DR crowd : > [@](#): > > Intercepted calls suggested a Russian SA-11 missile system - also known as BUK - had been transferred to the rebels, Mr Kerry said, and the US had seen a video of a launcher being moved back into Russia after flight MH17 crashed. I saw the video (or a video, anyway) myself - a BUK launcher on the back of a flatbed, missing a pair of missiles from its rack, passing by. Presumably shot by a local, but there’s wasn’t any time or geostamp so could be BS. In any event, how the hell should NATO know which SAM shot down the airliner ? These things are not static. As for hitting “insurgents” in Ukraine in general, and in any capacity whatsoever, I wouldn’t hold my breath - the truth is, everyone and their grandma knows half of them are really Russian soldiers or GRU “advisors” (they’re even supported by Russian artillery batteries for crying out loud, evidently crewed by [fucking idjits who post geotagged photos of covert operations to their facebook pages](http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.de/2014/07/russian-soldiers-vk-page-shows-russia.html)) and NATO sure can’t afford to tickle \*that \*bear. The US barely has any ground presence left and no armor whatsoever; while European nations have pared down their militaries to a threadbare level thanks to the various financial crises and the notion that the Cold War was it and what with nukes and such land militaries pretty much would never be needed locally any more. And then you’ve got the issue that Germany is pretty much in bed with Russia economically-speaking : they’ve shut down every nuclear reactor they had after Fukushima (and Germans were always pretty gung ho against nuke power anyway) so much like the US has to tolerate Saudi Arabia and Iraqi allies for the black stuff, Germany is married to Gazprom. So they’re not doing anything to put their economy in jeopardy, and if Germany doesn’t move the rest of the EU won’t either. Ukraine is on its own. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-insurgent-sam-batteries-in-ukraine-be-fair-game-for-air-strikes/693824/34 "2014-07-24T04:46:17Z")
Poor Czechoslovakia, sorry, I mean, Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-insurgent-sam-batteries-in-ukraine-be-fair-game-for-air-strikes/693824/35 "2014-07-24T05:49:39Z")
> [@XT](#): > > This plane was flying a known commercial route at freaking altitude. It’s nothing like the US/Iranian shoot down incident. 😕 [Iran Air Flight 655](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655#Shooting_down_of_Flight_655), too, was “flying a known commercial route” when you fellas shot it down: > [@](#): > > The flight was assigned routinely to commercial air corridor Amber 59, a twenty-mile (32 km)-wide lane on a direct line to Dubai airport. The short distance made for a simple flight pattern: climb to 14,000 feet (4,300 m), cruise for a short time, and descend into Dubai. The airliner was transmitting the correct transponder “squawk” code typical of a civilian aircraft and maintained English-speaking radio contact with appropriate air traffic control facilities. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-insurgent-sam-batteries-in-ukraine-be-fair-game-for-air-strikes/693824/36 "2014-07-24T06:43:48Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The memo provides a basis for the non-defaulting parties to take action against the defaulting party, but does not require them to do so. It stops short of an actual military committment. > > Note, though, that absent the justification for the non-defaulting parties to act, the memo has no enforcement mechanism for “non nuclear” attacks on Ukraine. > > It is still, arguably, “their business”. Just whether or not they decide to take enforcement action is up to them. The Budapest Memorandum doesn’t really affect the situation on this issue. Any country has justification to assist Ukraine at this point if it wishes to do so. International law recognizes not only the right for countries defend themselves when attacked but also the right for other uninvolved countries to assist in that defense. But no country is obligated by international law to assist in such a defense. And so far, no country has stepped forward to fight a war with Russia on behalf of Ukraine. And I can’t say I blame them. My take on this is this will just be an ugly example of real world politics. Russia is clearly in the wrong (despite what some people are saying). But they’re going to get away with it. Putin has apparently decided to rebuild the Soviet empire. None of the former Soviet countries are strong enough to stop him. And nobody outside of these countries sees this as a cause worth fighting for. Putin will catch a lot of diplomatic flack over this but he’s apparently decided it’s worth it. And I think Putin is smart enough that he’ll stop at the old Soviet borders and not provoke a response by going too far. The one exception will be the Baltic countries which joined NATO. That gives them backup that the other former Soviet countries don’t have. Putin, being no dummy, will let them be. The Central Asian republics also have strategic value to other countries so Russia might hold off on them as well. But I feel Ukraine, Moldova, Belarus, and the Caucasian republics are all going to end up back under Russian control. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-insurgent-sam-batteries-in-ukraine-be-fair-game-for-air-strikes/693824/37 "2014-07-24T12:16:06Z")
> [@XT](#): > > This plane was flying a known commercial route at freaking altitude. It’s nothing like the US/Iranian shoot down incident. And as for flying “at freaking altitude,” [so did Iran Air Flight 655, though the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff lied about it:](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2014/07/the_vincennes_downing_of_iran_air_flight_655_the_united_states_tried_to.html) > [@](#): > > … On July 3, at the first Pentagon press conference on the incident, Adm. William Crowe, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said that the Iranian plane had been flying at 9,000 feet and descending at a “high speed” of 450 knots, “headed directly” for the Vincennes. In fact, however, the Aug. 19 report—written by Rear Adm. William Fogarty of U.S. Central Command—concluded (from computer tapes found inside the ship’s combat information center) that the plane was “ascending through 12,000 feet” at the much slower speed of 380 knots. “At no time” did the Airbus “actually descend in altitude,” the report stated. So there’s yet another falsehood. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-insurgent-sam-batteries-in-ukraine-be-fair-game-for-air-strikes/693824/38 "2014-07-24T14:43:31Z")
I won’t claim to have never made “you too” argument (I certainly have), but at what point do we stop making excuses for people doing terrible things just because someone else did it before? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-insurgent-sam-batteries-in-ukraine-be-fair-game-for-air-strikes/693824/39 "2014-07-24T15:22:48Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > And as for flying “at freaking altitude,” [so did Iran Air Flight 655, though the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff lied about it:](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2014/07/the_vincennes_downing_of_iran_air_flight_655_the_united_states_tried_to.html) > > So there’s yet another falsehood. A bit more detail. > [@](#): > > Background > The Ticonderoga-class cruiser USS Vincennes had been deployed to the Persian Gulf at short notice so that her advanced Aegis Combat System could be used to compensate for the lack of AWACS cover. > > In 1984 the war between Iraq and Iran had expanded to include air attacks against oil tankers and merchant shipping of neighboring countries, some of whom were providing aid to Iraq by shipping Iraqi oil. The Flight 655 incident occurred a year after the Iraqi Air Force attack on the U.S. Navy guided-missile frigate USS Stark on 17 May 1987, which killed 37 American sailors. U.S. naval forces had also exchanged gunfire with Iranian gunboats in late 1987, and the U.S. Navy guided-missile frigate USS Samuel B. Roberts had struck an Iranian sea mine in April 1988. Two months before the incident the US had engaged in Operation Praying Mantis, resulting in the sinking of the Iranian frigate Sahand. Tensions were therefore high in the Strait of Hormuz at the time of the incident with Flight 655. > > On 29 April 1988 the U.S. expanded the scope of the U.S. Navy’s protection to all friendly neutral shipping in the Persian Gulf outside declared exclusion zones, setting the stage for the shootdown incident.[2] At about the same time, USS Vincennes was rushed to the area on a short-notice deployment, as a result of high-level decisions, to compensate for the lack of AWACS coverage, which was hampering U.S. monitoring of the southern Persian Gulf. Vincennes, fitted with the then-new Aegis Combat System and under the command of Captain William C. Rogers III,[2] departed San Diego on 25 April 1988 and arrived in Bahrain on 29 May 1988. > > As the Strait of Hormuz at its narrowest is just 21 nautical miles (39 km) wide,[12] in order to traverse the strait, ships must stay within sea lanes that pass through the territorial waters of Iran and Oman under the transit passage provisions of customary Law of the Sea.[13] It is therefore normal for ships, including warships, entering or leaving the Persian Gulf to transit Iranian territorial waters. During the Iran–Iraq War the Iranian forces frequently boarded and inspected neutral cargo ships in the Strait of Hormuz in search of contraband destined for Iraq. While legal under international law, these inspections added to the tensions in the area.[2] The plane was also not ‘at altitude’ but was climbing, and this was all happening when an Iranian gun boat had engaged the Vincennes and the Vincennes was pursuing said gun boat into Iranian waters: > [@](#): > > The plane, an Airbus A300B2, registered as EP-IBU and flown by Captain Mohsen Rezaian, a veteran pilot with 7,000 hours of flight time, left Bandar Abbas at 10:17 am Iran time (UTC +03:30), 27 minutes after its scheduled departure time. It should have been a 28-minute flight. After takeoff, it was directed by the Bandar Abbas tower to turn on its transponder and proceed over the Persian Gulf. The flight was assigned routinely to commercial air corridor Amber 59, a twenty-mile (32 km)-wide lane on a direct line to Dubai airport. The short distance made for a simple flight pattern: climb to 14,000 feet (4,300 m), cruise for a short time, and descend into Dubai. The airliner was transmitting the correct transponder “squawk” code typical of a civilian aircraft and maintained English-speaking radio contact with appropriate air traffic control facilities. > > On the morning of 3 July, the Vincennes was passing through the Strait of Hormuz returning from an escort duty.[2] A helicopter from the USS Vincennes received small arms fire from Iranian patrol vessels as it observed from high altitude. The Vincennes moved to engage the Iranian vessels, in the course of which they all violated Omani waters and left after being challenged and ordered to leave by a Royal Navy of Oman warship.[14] The Vincennes then pursued the Iranian gunboats, entering Iranian territorial waters to open fire. The USS Sides and USS Elmer Montgomery were nearby. Thus, the USS Vincennes was in Iranian territorial waters at the time of the incident, as admitted by the US government in legal briefs and publicly by Admiral William Crowe on Nightline.[15][16] Admiral Crowe denied a U.S. government coverup of the incident and claimed that the USS Vincennes’s helicopter was in international waters initially, when it was first fired upon by the Iranian gunboats.[15][17] > > Contrary to the accounts of various USS Vincennes crewmembers, the Vincennes’ shipboard Aegis Combat System recorded that the Iranian airliner was climbing at the time and its radio transmitter was “squawking” on the Mode III civilian code only, rather than on military Mode II.[18] > > After receiving no response to multiple radio challenges, the USS Vincennes fired two surface-to-air missiles at the airliner. One of the missiles hit the airliner, which exploded and fell in fragments into the water. Everyone on board was killed.[19] > > The event triggered an intense international controversy, with Iran condemning the U.S. attack. In mid-July 1988, Iranian Foreign Minister Ali Akbar Velayati asked the United Nations Security Council to condemn the United States saying the U.S. attack “could not have been a mistake” and was a “criminal act”, an “atrocity” and a “massacre”. George H. W. Bush, at the time Vice President of the United States in the Reagan administration, defended his country at the United Nations by arguing that the U.S. attack had been a wartime incident and that the crew of the Vincennes had acted appropriately to the situation.[20] The Soviet Union asked the U.S. to withdraw from the area and supported efforts by the Security Council to end the Iran–Iraq War. The remainder of the 13 delegates who spoke supported the U.S. position, saying one of the problems was that a 1987 resolution to end the Iran-Iraq war had been ignored.[21] Following the debate, Security Council Resolution 616 was passed expressing “deep distress” over the U.S. attack, “profound regret” for the loss of human lives, and stressed the need to end the Iran–Iraq War as resolved in 1987.[22] This is not to excuse what happened, nor to deny that there was an attempt at a cover up (that being that the USS Vincennes was indeed in Iranian waters), but the two incidents were nothing alike. The USS Vincennes was in a combat situation, actively pursuing an Iranian gun boat that had engaged it, and in a situation where shots had been exchanged recently and Iran had made threats against oil tankers in their claimed waters and had in the past dispatched fighter planes to harass ships and engaged an air craft that was climbing to altitude rapidly in their direction, while these separatist rebels basically shot at an air craft that was flying at over 30,000 ft on a known commercial route and weren’t exactly under the gun or under a large time constraint or pressure. So, if your assertion that my claim that these two incidents were similar was a ‘falsehood’, can you show me how they are similar except in the broadest terms? ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-insurgent-sam-batteries-in-ukraine-be-fair-game-for-air-strikes/693824/40 "2014-07-24T17:21:47Z")
On the first point, your own cite clearly states that the Iranian was indeed flying “a known commercial route,” _exactly_ like the Dutch plane was. Never for a moment did it go off course. On the second point, I seem to have been wrong about the Iranian plane being “at altitude” - your Wikipedia link says the plane was going to “climb to 14,000 feet”; the Slate article says it was “ascending through 12,000 feet” when the Americans knocked it down. Thanks for the correction. Both incidents happened during covert wars: Russia hasn’t officially declared war on the Ukraine, and to my knowledge the U.S. never officially declared war against Iran. Both seem to have been honest mistakes, in which a civilian target was mistaken for a military target. In both cases, the mistake - while _extremely_ tragic and regrettable - is somewhat understandable in light of the circumstances: As you correctly point out, the U.S.S. Vincennes had been harassed by Iranian gun boats and fighter planes, while in the Ukraine, Kiev’s planes had repeatedly attacked separatist positions. Some differences: In the Ukrainian situation, the shot was fired not by the Russians, but by their proxies / allies in the region. In the Iranian situation, the shot was fired by the Americans themselves, not by their proxies / allies in the region (Saddam Hussein and the Saudis). I expect that the situations will be similar in that a shameful attempt of a cover-up will follow this time, too. I don’t expect Putin to pin a medal on Alexander Khodakovsky, though, as the Americans did on Lustig and Rogers…! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-insurgent-sam-batteries-in-ukraine-be-fair-game-for-air-strikes/693824.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-insurgent-sam-batteries-in-ukraine-be-fair-game-for-air-strikes/693824.md?page=3)