# Would it be a good idea to build a massive border fence?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [September 12, 2009, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767 "2009-09-12T00:36:21Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)
#### Post date: [September 12, 2009, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/1 "2009-09-12T00:36:21Z")
The U.S-Mexican Border is 1,969 miles. What if we set up a double barbed wire fence and a 100 yard “No man’s land” buffer zone rigged with land mines? Even given a generous budget of a million per mile of fence, it would cost us two billion dollars. Chump change in comparison to the overall federal budget.
If, as many conservatives argue, illegal immigrants cost us more than they give us in tax revenues, the enhanced border security will easily pay for itself by saving taxpayers billions. Potential illegals won’t get in, and thus we wouldn’t have to spend tax money on health care and other services for them.
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### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [September 12, 2009, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/2 "2009-09-12T00:40:15Z")
Most illegals just come through as day-visitors, then just don’t leave. Disallowing entry, alone, might reduce the number that come in by some significant amount.
Charging them a fee to get in, as an alternative, could help finance a fence and policing to keep them out.
Reducing or eliminating minimum wage could, similarly, keep them out.
There’s no particular need to spend our money to keep them out.
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [September 12, 2009, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/3 "2009-09-12T01:26:03Z")
OK, I’ll be the first to ask it.
Whom do you think you would be hiring to build this fence?
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### Author:  [@Never\_Say\_Dice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Never_Say_Dice)
#### Post date: [September 12, 2009, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/4 "2009-09-12T01:40:42Z")
It would provide jobs for all the illegals. Tell them they can get the jobs if they change to Guest Worker status with a promise to return to Mexico. Double the benefit.
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### Author:  [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)
#### Post date: [September 12, 2009, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/5 "2009-09-12T01:45:48Z")
Can we move it a little further north to the Mason-Dixon line?
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### Author:  [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)
#### Post date: [September 12, 2009, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/6 "2009-09-12T01:50:32Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> OK, I’ll be the first to ask it.
>
> Whom do you think you would be hiring to build this fence?
Whoever we normally hire to do that sort of thing. 😛
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### Author:  [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)
#### Post date: [September 12, 2009, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/7 "2009-09-12T01:51:41Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> OK, I’ll be the first to ask it.
>
> Whom do you think you would be hiring to build this fence?
Mexican day laborers. The trick is to make sure that when they put that last section up, they wind up on their side and we wind up on ours.
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### Author:  [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)
#### Post date: [September 12, 2009, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/8 "2009-09-12T02:05:15Z")
> [@DanBlather](#):
>
> Can we move it a little further north to the Mason-Dixon line?
Only if tax dollars and retirees arent allowed to flow across it either 🙂
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### Author:  [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)
#### Post date: [September 12, 2009, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/9 "2009-09-12T02:06:57Z")
I take it you don’t mind those illegally crossing the US-Canadian border everyday? That border is 4,000 miles long and reportedly patrolled only by 300 Border Patrol agents.
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### Author:  [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)
#### Post date: [September 12, 2009, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/10 "2009-09-12T02:11:07Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> OK, I’ll be the first to ask it.
>
> Whom do you think you would be hiring to build this fence?
More seriously, I don’t think we’d have much of a problem with finding workers. We’ve got an unemployment rate approaching 10%. People would flock to sign up for this.
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### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [September 12, 2009, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/11 "2009-09-12T02:16:26Z")
> [@Blalron](#):
>
> More seriously, I don’t think we’d have much of a problem with finding workers. We’ve got an unemployment rate approaching 10%. People would flock to sign up for this.
The border is out in the middle of nowhere. An out-of-work programmer in Seattle isn’t even going to consider a three month job in frickin Texas to build a fence out in the middle of the desert.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [September 12, 2009, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/12 "2009-09-12T02:30:03Z")
> [@Blalron](#):
>
> The U.S-Mexican Border is 1,969 miles. What if we set up a double barbed wire fence and a 100 yard “No man’s land” buffer zone rigged with land mines? Even given a generous budget of a million per mile of fence, it would cost us two billion dollars. Chump change in comparison to the overall federal budget.
Over mountains and deserts? And it would have to be maintained indefinitely and heavily patrolled too; I think you underestimate the cost.
> [@Blalron](#):
>
> If, as many conservatives argue, illegal immigrants cost us more than they give us in tax revenues, the enhanced border security will easily pay for itself by saving taxpayers billions. Potential illegals won’t get in, and thus we wouldn’t have to spend tax money on health care and other services for them.
How often are conservatives right about anything? And they pay billions in taxes for minimal services. WE are exploiting THEM, not the other way around.
> [@Duckster](#):
>
> I take it you don’t mind those illegally crossing the US-Canadian border everyday? That border is 4,000 miles long and reportedly patrolled only by 300 Border Patrol agents.
Ah, but those are white people. And probably have more money too.
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### Author:  [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)
#### Post date: [September 12, 2009, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/13 "2009-09-12T02:37:52Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> How often are conservatives right about anything? And they pay billions in taxes for minimal services. WE are exploiting THEM, not the other way around.
So, we get to treat criminals (illegals) like wage slaves with no real rights ! THATS why we should let them in according to you?
Yee haw, thats moral justitication / position I can get behind!
Step 3 Profit !
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### Author:  [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)
#### Post date: [September 12, 2009, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/14 "2009-09-12T02:47:52Z")
It doesn’t matter. Smugglers can tunnel under the fences. Push come to shove, they can swim the Gulf of Mexico.
Besides which, the idea that illegals cost us money is a fallacy.
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### Author:  [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)
#### Post date: [September 12, 2009, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/15 "2009-09-12T02:52:12Z")
> [@billfish678](#):
>
> So, we get to treat criminals (illegals) like wage slaves with no real rights ! THATS why we should let them in according to you?
They’re not criminals!
Seriously, labor regulations were not designed to felonize this behavior. “Illegals”–actually undocumented workers–are not felons, they’re not dangerous criminals, they’re just violating a stupid labor law that was instituted for silly cynical reasons.
In recent years, there has a been a push to write state law making non-compliance with this stupid federal regulation a felony. Which is even more inane.
Just repeal the damn law, let people work where they want.
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### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [September 12, 2009, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/16 "2009-09-12T02:55:01Z")
Actually they’re illegally in the country. They’ve entered the country illegally or illegally stayed past their visa limit; they’ve illegally sought employment; they have often illegally supplied false documentation to an employer; and, they have often worked illegally due to not filing for the proper documentation.
So yes, they are illegals and wanted criminals.
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### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [September 12, 2009, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/17 "2009-09-12T02:55:16Z")
> [@Blalron](#):
>
> The U.S-Mexican Border is 1,969 miles. What if we set up a double barbed wire fence and a 100 yard “No man’s land” buffer zone rigged with land mines? Even given a generous budget of a million per mile of fence, it would cost us two billion dollars. Chump change in comparison to the overall federal budget.
Smaller-scale versions of this [have been proposed](http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003282313_fence30.html). The project appears to be neither as straightforward nor as inexpensive as you suggest:
> [@](#):
>
> WASHINGTON — The Senate gave final approval late Friday [29 September 2006] to legislation authorizing the construction of 698 miles of double-layered fencing on the U.S.-Mexico border, shelving President Bush’s vision of an overhaul of U.S. immigration laws in favor of a vast barrier. […]
>
> The Secure Fence Act authorizes the construction of at least two layers of reinforced fencing around the border town of Tecate, Calif., and a huge expanse stretching from Calexico, Calif., to Douglas, Ariz., virtually the entire length of Arizona’s border with Mexico.
>
> Another expanse would stretch over much of the southern border of New Mexico, with another section winding through Texas, from Del Rio to Eagle Pass, and from Laredo to Brownsville.
>
> The Department of Homeland Security would be required to install an intricate network of surveillance cameras on the Arizona border by May 30, 2007, with the entire fence set for completion by the end of 2008.
>
> Under the measure, the secretary of homeland security would have 18 months to achieve “operational control” of the U.S. frontier, using unmanned aerial vehicles, ground-based sensors, satellites, radar and cameras to prevent all unlawful U.S. entries. Fortifying those requirements, Congress approved $1.2 billion in a separate homeland-security spending bill to bankroll the fence.
>
> That figure, however, is only a down payment and falls far short of the $6 billion the fence is expected to cost. The border now has 83 miles of fences. Lawmakers from both parties conceded that, even at 698 miles, the new barriers would leave nearly 1,200 miles of border uncovered. […]
>
> Advocates and opponents of the measure said it is not clear that the fence can be built as the bill envisions. The Arizona branch would have to plunge down steep ravines and scale craggy mountain peaks. “This is not Iowa farm land,” said Rep. Raul Grijalva, D-Ariz. Construction is “going to be near impossible.”
>
> A vast stretch of the Arizona fence would traverse the lands of the Tohono O’odham Nation, which strongly opposes it and could bring suit, said Rep. Jim Kolbe, R-Ariz. And the Border Patrol does not have enough agents to stop smugglers from knocking holes in remote stretches.
Your land-mine idea hasn’t yet found its way into such legislation, AFAIK, but I wonder if it might be damaging to US public relations for us to become known for deliberately blowing the legs off trespassers who are mostly just responding to the employment opportunities willingly provided by US employers looking for a docile, hardworking, and low-paid labor force.
(A disclaimer is probably necessary here to alleviate the concerns of whatever border-security aficionados may be reading this: No, I’m not in favor of open borders or Mexican annexation of the US Southwest, nor do I think that illegal border crossing is okay. However, I do think that getting blasted by a landmine for illegal border crossing qualifies as excessively punitive.)
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### Author:  [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)
#### Post date: [September 12, 2009, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/18 "2009-09-12T02:58:25Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#):
>
> It doesn’t matter. Smugglers can tunnel under the fences. Push come to shove, they can swim the Gulf of Mexico.
>
> Besides which, the idea that illegals cost us money is a fallacy.
So, if you can’t keep out every single one, dont even bother?
Give us the numbers how they SAVE us more than they cost then. I am waiting with baited breath.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [September 12, 2009, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/19 "2009-09-12T02:58:31Z")
> [@billfish678](#):
>
> So, we get to treat criminals (illegals) like wage slaves with no real rights !
No, we should make it easier for them to get in legally.
> [@Sage\_Rat](#):
>
> Actually they’re illegally in the country. They’ve entered the country illegally or illegally stayed past their visa limit; they’ve illegally sought employment; they have often illegally supplied false documentation to an employer; and, they have often worked illegally due to not filing for the proper documentation.
>
> So yes, they are illegals and wanted criminals.
Due to a system designed to create that situation, in order to make their exploitation easier.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [September 12, 2009, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/20 "2009-09-12T03:00:23Z")
> [@billfish678](#):
>
> So, if you can’t keep out every single one, dont even bother?
>
> Give us the numbers how they SAVE us more than they cost then. I am waiting with baited breath.
[One example](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html?ei=5090&en=78c87ac4641dc383&ex=1270353600&partner=kmarx&pagewanted=all&position=):
> [@](#):
>
> As the debate over Social Security heats up, the estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year.
>
> While it has been evident for years that illegal immigrants pay a variety of taxes, the extent of their contributions to Social Security is striking: the money added up to about 10 percent of last year’s surplus - the difference between what the system currently receives in payroll taxes and what it doles out in pension benefits. Moreover, the money paid by illegal workers and their employers is factored into all the Social Security Administration’s projections.
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