# Would it be a good idea to build a massive border fence? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 12, 2009, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767 "2009-09-12T00:36:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/21 "2009-09-12T03:05:34Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Due to a system designed to create that situation, in order to make their exploitation easier. A system which has been in place since the foundation of the nation and has been fully publicized as being the state of affairs. It’s not like illegal immigrants came here unaware that they were choosing to break US and international law, nor that they were unaware that they were committing fraud by creating false documentation. Laws weren’t created after-the-fact just to piss off Mexicans. It’s never been legal and there’s no other country in the world which doesn’t view itself as having the right to determine citizenship and immigration laws. Pretending like the entire history of national borders was made up five years ago rather than 10,000 years ago is sufficiently disingenuous that I’d have to vote insanity or gross cognitive dissonance on your part. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/22 "2009-09-12T03:08:40Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > [One example](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html?ei=5090&en=78c87ac4641dc383&ex=1270353600&partner=kmarx&pagewanted=all&position=): And if AMERICANS were doing those jobs instead, paying ALL their taxes, and getting at least minimum wage for doing it they would be paying even MORE into the social security system. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/23 "2009-09-12T03:10:21Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Due to a system designed to create that situation, in order to make their exploitation easier. If they werent here we couldnt be exploiting them. You really seem to be pro exploitation dude. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/24 "2009-09-12T03:14:56Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > A system which has been in place since the foundation of the nation and has been fully publicized as being the state of affairs. It’s not like illegal immigrants came here unaware that they were choosing to break US and international law, nor that they were unaware that they were committing fraud by creating false documentation. The system has not not “been in place since the foundation of the nation”; we had no reason for such a system during the slavery era, for example. Nor has Mexico been so badly impoverished relative to the US for its entire history. You are confusing generic border control with a system designed to produce a population of illegal aliens whom we can exploit. > [@billfish678](#): > > And if AMERICANS were doing those jobs instead, paying ALL their taxes, and getting at least minimum wage for doing it they would be paying even MORE into the social security system. But they would also be withdrawing benefits from it. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/25 "2009-09-12T03:26:32Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The system has not not “been in place since the foundation of the nation”; we had no reason for such a system during the slavery era, for example. Nor has Mexico been so badly impoverished relative to the US for its entire history. You are confusing generic border control with a system designed to produce a population of illegal aliens whom we can exploit. What changed when, exactly, that you’re blaming? I’ll bet you that I can show that we had legal borders back when slavery was still legal. I’ll bet you that I can show that we have had an naturalization process in place since longer than a decade or two. I’ll bet I can show that the need to attain a work visa if you have not been naturalized has similarly been in place for longer than a decade or two. And I bet I can show that Mexico is an entirely different country from ours and that the state of their economy is not really something controlled by us. What did we do, when, for the specific purpose of procuring illegal aliens into our country? ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/26 "2009-09-12T03:33:15Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > It’s not like illegal immigrants came here unaware that they were choosing to break US and international law, nor that they were unaware that they were committing fraud by creating false documentation. > > Laws weren’t created after-the-fact just to piss off Mexicans. What international law are you talking about? How about a cite? And regardless, since when does the US respect international law? Actually laws were created especially to discriminate against Mexicans. You should read up on the history of your policies toward Mexicans. Even had a nice little program called “Operation Wetback” at one time. Its funny, when the US wanted us to do the menial labor we were always welcome. As soon as the economic situation changed we went back to being considered unworthy of being there and were treated like shit. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/27 "2009-09-12T03:36:04Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > And I bet I can show that Mexico is an entirely different country from ours and that the state of their economy is not really something controlled by us. We’ve been screwing other nations in our sphere for a long time. We also flood Mexico with guns and pour huge amounts of money into the criminal drug empires there. We are partially responsible. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > What did we do, when, for the specific purpose of procuring illegal aliens into our country? Created a vast job market for them while making sure that legal immigration is highly difficult. And avoided punishing the people that hire them; just punishing the poorer, browner people from Mexico. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/28 "2009-09-12T03:45:02Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Your land-mine idea hasn’t yet found its way into such legislation, AFAIK, but I wonder if it might be damaging to US public relations for us to become known for deliberately blowing the legs off trespassers who are mostly just responding to the employment opportunities willingly provided by US employers looking for a docile, hardworking, and low-paid labor force. The idea behind it would be a deterrent, not a punishment. Who is actually going to scale a barbed wire fence with signs that say CAUTION: LAND MINES (CUIDADO: MINA TERRESTRE)? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/29 "2009-09-12T04:01:07Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > The idea behind it would be a deterrent, not a punishment. Who is actually going to scale a barbed wire fence with signs that say CAUTION: LAND MINES (CUIDADO: MINA TERRESTRE)? They’ll go under it, or through poorly built or destroyed portions of it. Or simply take their chances; they already risk and sometimes lose their lives trying to get in. The usual result of our occasional attempts to go through the motions of closing the border has been to kill more Mexicans without stemming the flow ( which is as intended, I expect ). ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/30 "2009-09-12T04:08:15Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > The U.S-Mexican Border is 1,969 miles. What if we set up a double barbed wire fence and a 100 yard “No man’s land” buffer zone rigged with land mines? Even given a generous budget of a million per mile of fence, it would cost us two billion dollars. Chump change in comparison to the overall federal budget. > > If, as many conservatives argue, illegal immigrants cost us more than they give us in tax revenues, the enhanced border security will easily pay for itself by saving taxpayers billions. Potential illegals won’t get in, and thus we wouldn’t have to spend tax money on health care and other services for them. Building the border fence that has been proposed is expensive enough, as has been mentioned in this thread already. But can you imagine how much it would cost to confiscate (via eminent domain, presumably) the land within that 100 yard stretch along the entire length of the border? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/31 "2009-09-12T04:08:35Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Created a vast job market for them while making sure that legal immigration is highly difficult. And avoided punishing the people that hire them; just punishing the poorer, browner people from Mexico. What law created a vast market? What current law has made immigration harder for Mexicans than for anyone else? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/32 "2009-09-12T04:35:41Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > What international law are you talking about? How about a cite? And regardless, since when does the US respect international law? Well, for instance the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights: > [@](#): > > Article 13. > > ``` > * (1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state. > * (2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country. > > ``` > > Article 14. > > ``` > * (1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution. > * (2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations. > > ``` > > Article 15. > > ``` > * (1) Everyone has the right to a nationality. > * (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality. > > ``` So, at minimum, there is such a thing as nationality. And a person is allowed to change his nationality. However, a nation isn’t required to accept a person into their populace. As stated in international law, the right to change nationality is a one-way door. The other direction is open to the whims of the nation itself. And most specifically, it appears to be fully open for a nation to decide the requirements for visitation by non-nationals in any case outside of those seeking asylum. So international law for visitation by foreigners is that it’s up to the nation at hand. However, there is even more law than that: [http://www2.ohchr.org/english/law/ccpr.htm](http://www2.ohchr.org/english/law/ccpr.htm) (See Articles 12 & 13) > [@](#): > > Actually laws were created especially to discriminate against Mexicans. You should read up on the history of your policies toward Mexicans. And are…any of these still in effect? Do any of them **encourage** Mexicans to come here and work illegally? If so, does that appear to have been an actual intent of the legislation? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/33 "2009-09-12T04:47:35Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > The idea behind it would be a deterrent, not a punishment. Who is actually going to scale a barbed wire fence with signs that say CAUTION: LAND MINES (CUIDADO: MINA TERRESTRE)? Are you kidding? People in harsh circumstances make the choice to take their chances of death or dismemberment by entering known and signed landmine areas all the time. To take just one example, [Iraqi Kurdish shepherds in 2008](http://www.unpo.org/content/view/8420/116/) were faced with the grim choice between trying to pasture their sheep on fields starved by drought, and moving them to richer fields that had been under-grazed because they were known to contain landmines: > [@](#): > > It is also not because they did not listen to the warning messages or those messages have aged and being forgotten but the main problem was drought. Most of the victims are shepherds in need of grazing grounds for their herds. Because of the drought, they have been forced to go to areas with good grazing grounds. However, other shepherds have not used those grazing ground in years because they are dangerous landmine fields. Therefore, this has resulted in a large number of victims and disabled as well as large loss of live stock which is a national loss. If you can’t even imagine a struggle for subsistence desperate enough to make you willing to risk stepping on a landmine for the sake of getting a chance at a better life, I congratulate you. But there are many poor people in the world who aren’t so lucky. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/34 "2009-09-12T04:59:12Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Are you kidding? People in harsh circumstances make the choice to take their chances of death or dismemberment by entering known and signed landmine areas all the time. To take just one example, [Iraqi Kurdish shepherds in 2008](http://www.unpo.org/content/view/8420/116/) were faced with the grim choice between trying to pasture their sheep on fields starved by drought, and moving them to richer fields that had been under-grazed because they were known to contain landmines: > > If you can’t even imagine a struggle for subsistence desperate enough to make you willing to risk stepping on a landmine for the sake of getting a chance at a better life, I congratulate you. But there are many poor people in the world who aren’t so lucky. This is true, but frankly there’s never going to be a 100% solution. The harder entry becomes, the fewer the number of illegals who will choose to enter the country. But yes, some number will strive forward no matter how hard it is, so long as Mexico is felt to be that much worse. But, I seriously doubt that we would need to use particularly life-threatening measures to significantly reduce the number of foreign nationals illegally in the country. ---
**Author:** ![StaudtCJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@StaudtCJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StaudtCJ)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/35 "2009-09-12T05:01:26Z")
My first thought on this was “Yeah, sure, because the Berlin Wall was SOOOOO Popular and useful.” ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/36 "2009-09-12T05:38:32Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Give us the numbers how they SAVE us more than they cost then. I am waiting with baited breath. How much do you think a tomato would cost if you had to pay minimum wage to the pickers? Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for the end of cheap food & for farmers being compensated properly. But the idea that illegals are just abusing us & using our hospitals & schools–when they have public health care & public schools, provided in their own language, back home–is ridiculous. These people have messed-up economies back home. They should be fighting to fix them. But we should be helping them do that, not exploiting them for cheap labor & then calling them criminals. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/37 "2009-09-12T05:44:52Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > A system which has been in place since the foundation of the nation… Not remotely true. This country has historically had very open borders–with Europe. And we used to have open borders with Mexico. There were restrictions on East Asian immigration for racist reasons at one time. The system has changed repeatedly. > [@](#): > > Pretending like the entire history of national borders was made up five years ago rather than 10,000 years ago is sufficiently disingenuous that I’d have to vote insanity or gross cognitive dissonance on your part. Most of the world had no well-defined national borders, & even civilized countries lacked such restrictions on movement of civilian laborers across national borders, even 600 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/38 "2009-09-12T05:57:16Z")
OK, I was talking out of my ass. So, cites: [The US Border Patrol is only 75 years old, & was originally anti-Chinese.](http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/border_security/border_patrol/border_patrol_ohs/history.xml) > **[United States Customs and Border Protection | History](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Customs_and_Border_Protection#History)** > > Responding to an urgent need for revenue following the American Revolutionary War, the First United States Congress passed, and President George Washington signed on July 4, the Tariff of 1789, which authorized the collection of duties on imports. Four weeks later, on July 31, the fifth act of Congress established the United States Customs Service and its ports of entry. > For nearly 125 years, the U.S. Customs Service was the primary source of governmental funds, which paid for the nation's early... > [@Wikipedia](#): > > Shortly after the American Civil War, some states started to pass their own immigration laws, which prompted the U.S. Supreme Court to rule in 1875 that immigration was a federal responsibility > **[Border Games](https://books.google.com/books?id=90M4eva79lAC&pg=PA29&lpg=PA29&dq=border+controls+history&source=bl&ots=IYUXRKqWDv&sig=YtHec-g12eOh4M_7m2ISm8TY3SU&hl=en&ei=QjerSsewKZGutgewtPWxCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10#v=onepage&q=border%20controls%20history&f=false)** > > The U.S.-Mexico border is the busiest in the world, the longest and most dramatic meeting point of a rich and poor country, and the site of intense confrontation between law enforcement and law evasion. Border control has changed in recent years from... The US/Mexico border has never really been “under control.” And yet here we stand, without the collapse of America. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/39 "2009-09-12T06:02:41Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Not remotely true. This country has historically had very open borders–with Europe. [O rly?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalization_Act_of_1790) I’m not saying that it hasn’t been tightened. But I think you’ll find that if there ever was a period of time where you could just plunk yourself down and have all the rights of anyone else, that period of time was very short. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/40 "2009-09-12T06:04:21Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > The border is out in the middle of nowhere. An out-of-work programmer in Seattle isn’t even going to consider a three month job in frickin Texas to build a fence out in the middle of the desert. Sure they would. People go work on oil rigs in the gulf. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767.md?page=3)