# Would it be a good idea to build a massive border fence? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 12, 2009, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767 "2009-09-12T00:36:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/41 "2009-09-12T06:05:58Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Besides which, the idea that illegals cost us money is a fallacy. No it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/42 "2009-09-12T06:06:15Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Sure they would. People go work on oil rigs in the gulf. Well yeah, if it pays _enough_. But I’m somewhat doubting that this is big enough an issue to the US government that they’re going to start offering $100k a year plus transportation costs to allow anyone in the nation to go down and patrol the US-Mexico border. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/43 "2009-09-12T06:09:41Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > And if AMERICANS were doing those jobs instead, paying ALL their taxes, and getting at least minimum wage for doing it they would be paying even MORE into the social security system. And NOT receiving unemployment and other government assistance. Talk about your win-win. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/44 "2009-09-12T06:32:34Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Most illegals just come through as day-visitors, then just don’t leave. Disallowing entry, alone, might reduce the number that come in by some significant amount. > > Charging them a fee to get in, as an alternative, could help finance a fence and policing to keep them out. > > Reducing or eliminating minimum wage could, similarly, keep them out. > > There’s no particular need to spend our money to keep them out. never mind ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/45 "2009-09-12T06:35:12Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > The U.S-Mexican Border is 1,969 miles. What if we set up a double barbed wire fence and a 100 yard “No man’s land” buffer zone rigged with land mines? Even given a generous budget of a million per mile of fence, it would cost us two billion dollars. Chump change in comparison to the overall federal budget. > > If, as many conservatives argue, illegal immigrants cost us more than they give us in tax revenues, the enhanced border security will easily pay for itself by saving taxpayers billions. Potential illegals won’t get in, and thus we wouldn’t have to spend tax money on health care and other services for them. Allow me, a Brit, to offer some advice. Towers every hundred yards or so manned by guards with .50 cal machine guns. Well you might as well go the whole hog, no point in half-assed methods 😉 ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/46 "2009-09-12T06:35:15Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > [O rly?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalization_Act_of_1790) > > I’m not saying that it hasn’t been tightened. But I think you’ll find that if there ever was a period of time where you could just plunk yourself down and have all the rights of anyone else, that period of time was very short. Yep. Very short. You could come from Poland & have all the rights of a citizen in _two years._ I know that’s not what you meant. But I’m not saying that we base voting & citizenship purely on residence. I’m saying we have a more liberal visa regime. Here’s how I would pragmatically do it. Set up schools in countries that have a lot of potential migrants. They’d teach crash-course English, as well as useful information for living in the USA. Meanwhile we can run background checks & screen for exotic infectious diseases. Spend a few months, pass the class, you get an open-ended visa. If we find you’re a fugitive from justice, we send you back to the appropriate jurisdiction. Don’t pass, you can try again. And it’ll cost less than paying the _coyotes_ to smuggle you across. When you enter the country, we give you a nice friendly help line to call if you ever need anything (which incidentally helps us keep tabs on you). What we’re doing, by contrast, manufactures “criminality,” & funds actual dangerous gangs who traffic in humans. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/47 "2009-09-12T06:36:33Z")
> [@chowder](#): > > Allow me, a Brit, to offer some advice. > > Towers every hundred yards or so manned by guards with .50 cal machine guns. > > Well you might as well go the whole hog, no point in half-assed methods 😉 I know you’re joking, but that’s where it’s going to end up when the fence doesn’t work, which it can’t. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/48 "2009-09-12T06:41:25Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Actually they’re illegally in the country. They’ve entered the country illegally or illegally stayed past their visa limit; they’ve illegally sought employment; they have often illegally supplied false documentation to an employer; and, they have often worked illegally due to not filing for the proper documentation. > > So yes, they are illegals and wanted criminals. If I park illegally, am I a criminal? Not every violation of the law should really be called a crime. I’m not saying that illegal immigration (basically trespassing on someone else’s country) isn’t a crime, but too often the analysis seems to start and stop at, they’re here illegally, they’re criminals. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/49 "2009-09-12T06:57:12Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > If I park illegally, am I a criminal? Not every violation of the law should really be called a crime. I’m not saying that illegal immigration (basically trespassing on someone else’s country) isn’t a crime, but too often the analysis seems to start and stop at, they’re here illegally, they’re criminals. All you’re saying is that the extent and results of crimes vary. Yeah but, what does that have to do with anything? It’s not like the penalty for trespassing in the US is all that great; they just get sent back home. But, because the penalty isn’t all that stiff in no way means that we should be enamored of them. They’re here illegally. They’re not adding value to the nation. And they’re screwing with all the people who worked through the process to become properly naturalized citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/50 "2009-09-12T09:13:55Z")
These speeches about how awful it is to come here illegally, about how they are these awful criminals are mostly nothing but racism and class warfare in disguise. Otherwise, there would be just as much passion for cracking down on the wealthier, whiter people who hire them and are just as much criminals. But there never is, because this issue has little to do with law. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > But, I seriously doubt that we would need to use particularly life-threatening measures to significantly reduce the number of foreign nationals illegally in the country. We already do NOW. We guard the easy to cross areas, push them into deserts and other dangerous territory and quite a few die from it. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > They’re here illegally. They’re not adding value to the nation. And again; we are the ones exploiting them. They add plenty of value; value that we don’t deserve. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > And they’re screwing with all the people who worked through the process to become properly naturalized citizens. What makes you think they wouldn’t become citizens if they were allowed? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/51 "2009-09-12T09:29:15Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And again; we are the ones exploiting them. What law was passed to bring Mexicans here? When has it ever been legal to hire illegal immigrants? Why would the government import people to work for less than the minimum wage rather than just removing the minimum wage? Why would we import illegals just so that we could hate them and want to kick them out? I’m perfectly happy to tear your little conspiracy theory apart, but you’ve got to explain the conspiracy to me first. Does it involve lizard people? Is zombie Elvis the guy who is masterminding this clever scheme? Inquiring minds want to know! ---
**Author:** ![Iridescent\_Orb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@Iridescent\_Orb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iridescent_Orb)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/52 "2009-09-12T09:43:17Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > What makes you think they wouldn’t become citizens if they were allowed? The vast majority would become Citizens if allowed. The issue is that U.S. Citizenship is a scarce commodity, still highly desired by foreign nationals. That lets the U.S. exercise selectivity. Just because someone wants U.S. Citizenship doesn’t mean the U.S. wants them. Let them apply and wait their turn like everyone else. If they have valuable skills the U.S. requires (or other suitable qualifications), then Welcome to America! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/53 "2009-09-12T09:54:55Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > What law was passed to bring Mexicans here? When has it ever been legal to hire illegal immigrants? Why would the government import people to work for less than the minimum wage rather than just removing the minimum wage? Why would we import illegals just so that we could hate them and want to kick them out? > > I’m perfectly happy to tear your little conspiracy theory apart, but you’ve got to explain the conspiracy to me first. Does it involve lizard people? Is zombie Elvis the guy who is masterminding this clever scheme? Inquiring minds want to know! What are you babbling about? They come here so they can put food on the table. We want them here so we can use them for cheap labor; we want to hate them so we can justify our exploitation of them. After all, they are subhuman scum, so who cares what happens to them? > [@Iridescent\_Orb](#): > > The vast majority would become Citizens if allowed. The issue is that U.S. Citizenship is a scarce commodity, still highly desired by foreign nationals. That lets the U.S. exercise selectivity. Just because someone wants U.S. Citizenship doesn’t mean the U.S. wants them. Let them apply and wait their turn like everyone else. If they have valuable skills the U.S. requires (or other suitable qualifications), then Welcome to America! Yeah, right. We do want them here, so we can _ **use** _ them. We just don’t want to have to treat them like human beings. We _ **will not** _ let very many in legally, because that would deplete the supply of easily exploited illegals. We WANT them here, and we want them to be illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/54 "2009-09-12T10:19:29Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > What are you babbling about? They come here so they can put food on the table. We want them here so we can use them for cheap labor; we want to hate them so we can justify our exploitation of them. After all, they are subhuman scum, so who cares what happens to them? Yes but **what** is bringing them here? You keep saying that we’re bringing them here, or we’re doing something to encourage them to come here. **What** is this magical thing which you refuse to name that the US government is doing for the express purpose of causing Mexicans to leave their country and illegally enter ours? Example: _We nefariously developed our economy into being a comparatively strong one, starting from 200 years ago, just as a long-term plan to enslave Mexican immigrants._ This is a very easy question. If you want to blame us for pulling them in and exploiting them, you have to say how we pulled them in and you need to show that whatever this thing was, was created with nefarious intentions in mind. But lacking both of those, you’re not making your point. Let’s look at conspiracy theories: Armenians got together and convinced the UN that the Turks had pulled off a genocide. Okay but…why would they do that? If you ask that question to a theorist, you’re just going to get more blather that never actually answers the question. NASA faked the moon landings. Okay but…again why would they do that? And again, you’ll just get evasive answers. But both of these have the “what”–they say what is supposed to have happened–but are lacking a “why”. You’re doing the opposite and you have a “why” but you’re evading the “what”. I mean, I’m certain that even if you do find some answer that it will still be stupid and illogical, but you’ll at least be able to feel happy for yourself to have broken the mold and graduated to a new level of theorism. So work for it man. Go for the gold. We’re rooting fer ya. ---
**Author:** ![Iridescent\_Orb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@Iridescent\_Orb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iridescent_Orb)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/55 "2009-09-12T10:29:28Z")
I have to agree with **Sage Rat** here. Your arguments are very general and unspecific. They may have merit, but it is really hard to judge without greater clarity and specificity. Also, I should point out that Mexicans do receive preferential treatment for work visas under NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement). There are several provisions which allow for greater worker mobility between Canada, The United States and Mexico. Of all foreign nationals, Mexicans (and Canadians) have the easiest time getting U.S. work visas. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/56 "2009-09-12T11:49:38Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Yes but **what** is bringing them here? You keep saying that we’re bringing them here, or we’re doing something to encourage them to come here. **What** is this magical thing which you refuse to name that the US government is doing for the express purpose of causing Mexicans to leave their country and illegally enter ours? Stop willfully misinterpreting what I’m saying. As I’m sure you are well aware, they come here in order to make money. At no point did I say that we were kidnapping or seducing them or anything of the sort; you are engaging in the common right wing tactic of distorting what people say so you can accuse them of being a “conspiracy theorist”. You are trying to handwave the fact that we ARE exploiting them. We do, however make it impractical for many to come here legally; we then exploit those who come here illegally, and we hold them in contempt for doing exactly what we have set up to happen. And at the same time we condemn them for breaking the law, we very seldom punish the people who ALSO break the law by hiring them. It’s just the poorer, browner people who get punished. Now why would that be, hmmm… ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/57 "2009-09-12T14:12:39Z")
It’s not so much the government that wants them here as the dominant landowning culture in parts of the US. We are not monolithic. Actually, as to the OP. Whatever my feelings on immigration, I should get back to your question. No, a fence won’t work. The one thing I know of that has made some (local) difference is state laws targeting & criminalizing the undocumented. I don’t agree with it, it won’t pass in Texas or California, but it has apparently lowered the number of Hispanics in Missouri. Or they’re just keeping quiet. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/58 "2009-09-12T14:16:23Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Yes but **what** is bringing them here? You keep saying that we’re bringing them here, or we’re doing something to encourage them to come here. **What** is this magical thing which you refuse to name that the US government is doing for the express purpose of causing Mexicans to leave their country and illegally enter ours? You are giving them jobs. Why does it have to be the government that entices them? American citizens and large corporations knowingly hire undocumented workers. And in many cases abuse them by paying substandard wages and offering poor working conditions. The bottom line, amigo. It is what the US is all about. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/59 "2009-09-12T15:06:37Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Stop willfully misinterpreting what I’m saying. As I’m sure you are well aware, they come here in order to make money. I am aware of that. So how does that translate to us being nefarious or us exploiting them? We told them not to come, that they wouldn’t be able to work legally, and yet they came against our laws and sought employment from people who were crooked enough to break the law and hire them. How is this us exploiting them? ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767/60 "2009-09-12T17:46:41Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I am aware of that. So how does that translate to us being nefarious or us exploiting them? We told them not to come, that they wouldn’t be able to work legally, and yet they came against our laws and sought employment from people who were crooked enough to break the law and hire them. > > How is this us exploiting them? Because we allow the goods that they produce to remain on the market. It’s not good enough to deport the aliens and (sometimes) slap the employers with fines. We need to destroy the goods they produce. They pick $100,000 worth of produce? Dump it in the field and let it rot. They build a house? Tear it down. If we allow the efforts of aliens to remain on the market for citizens to enjoy, then like it or not we are benefiting from them. I’m not saying that I agree with doing that, but as long as we gain from the work of aliens, even if they are deported and the employers fined, then we receive some benefit from their labor. I think that would be exploitation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-a-good-idea-to-build-a-massive-border-fence/509767.md?page=4)