# Would it be evil for me to give Jehovah Witnesses handouts from JWFacts.com when they come here? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 17, 2014, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774 "2014-08-17T20:41:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/61 "2014-08-18T18:33:02Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > And any of my Jewish brethren were to cut someone out of their life for converting to another religion or marrying outside of the faith, I would find that equally reprehensible. In fairness, some of the more fringe ultra-Orthodox would shun family members who converted outside of the faith. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/62 "2014-08-18T18:36:08Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > In fairness, some of the more fringe ultra-Orthodox would shun family members who converted outside of the faith. Yes, which is why I said I find that equally reprehensible and consider their cult-like mentality harmful as well. My mom was raised Hasidic (back in Europe), and much of my family is ultra-orthodox, so I’m not unfamiliar with them. ---
**Author:** ![PorchePine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@PorchePine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PorchePine)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/63 "2014-08-18T18:36:23Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > In fairness, some of the more fringe ultra-Orthodox would shun family members who converted outside of the faith. In fairness, the poster did say they’d find that morally reprehensible. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/64 "2014-08-18T18:37:46Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > If a practicing Catholic came to my synagogue they would be more than welcome. If they chose to not stand at parts of the service, or wear a kippot etc, that’s their choice. > > If they wanted to take communion in my synagogue (not sure why, but I’ll run with it), they’d be politely told that we can’t do that here. At no point would they be shunned from my life. If they kicked up a fuss, started using ethnic slurs, and punched the Rabbi, then their behavior would cause me to cut them out. > > You simply need to accept that becoming apostate is reason enough for _you_ to cut someone out, but most people do not see it that way and find the harm that action causes reprehensible. > > And any of my Jewish brethren were to cut someone out of their life for converting to another religion or marrying outside of the faith, I would find that equally reprehensible. Your point is well taken. I attended funeral services for both parents (11 years apart) of a girl I knew in high school–often mentioned on the SDMB. It was at a small Episcopalian church; though I am not Episcopalian I sang the hymns and paused for the prayer–and, of course., wept bitterly at the end. ---
**Author:** ![PorchePine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@PorchePine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PorchePine)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/65 "2014-08-18T18:41:06Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > In the congregation I knew a divided family: The mother was a Witness, the father was a dyed-in-the-wool Baptist. (Their kids attended both services.) I was an Amway distributor at the time, and the mother ordered some goods from me, which I was to deliver to their home–when the father, an off - duty firefighter, would be home. I did so. I was cordial, so was he; the delivery went just fine; religion was not mentioned. 🙂 A “divided family”? I guess that term makes since in a religion that celebrates rejecting people. Any other Christian denominations that I’ve been exposed to (say Catholic and Baptist, or Shaker and Lutherian, or any other combination) would either just use the blanket term “Christian family” or possibly something along the lines of “mixed” or “blended”. My neighbors are Catholic/Jewish, and even they don’t use the term “divided”. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/66 "2014-08-18T18:42:28Z")
> [@simster](#): > > You always head for the “worst of the worst” types of offenses - yet we’ve discussed before the full range of offenses that are disfellowshipping offenses - Including even contact with ones family that might be disfellowshipped. > > Are you truly prepared to discuss this at any reasonable level? > > Would you disfellowship someone that had repeatedly lied to you? To answer your first question: I am. Second question: I very likely would. With my dismal social history I have little to lose anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/67 "2014-08-18T18:43:08Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > In the congregation I knew a divided family: The mother was a Witness, the father was a dyed-in-the-wool Baptist. (Their kids attended both services.) I was an Amway distributor at the time, and the mother ordered some goods from me, which I was to deliver to their home–when the father, an off - duty firefighter, would be home. I did so. I was cordial, so was he; the delivery went just fine; religion was not mentioned. 🙂 Sometimes it’s best just not to mention religion. I’m an atheist, and my favorite uncle (honestly, about the only one I can stand) is, as far as I can tell, a Dominionist. I just don’t bring it up. We go eat sushi together, have a good time, and talk about other things. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/68 "2014-08-18T18:48:07Z")
> [@PorchePine](#): > > A “divided family”? I guess that term makes since in a religion that celebrates rejecting people. > > Any other Christian denominations that I’ve been exposed to (say Catholic and Baptist, or Shaker and Lutherian, or any other combination) would either just use the blanket term “Christian family” or possibly something along the lines of “mixed” or “blended”. My neighbors are Catholic/Jewish, and even they don’t use the term “divided”. :Sigh: I don’t know any better word; “divided” was common among Witnesses at the time. Still, both parents followed Scriptural counsel about having an “unbelieving mate,” and so harmony reigned in the household. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/69 "2014-08-18T18:49:27Z")
> [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](#): > > Sometimes it’s best just not to mention religion. I’m an atheist, and my favorite uncle (honestly, about the only one I can stand) is, as far as I can tell, a Dominionist. I just don’t bring it up. We go eat sushi together, have a good time, and talk about other things. All the better. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/70 "2014-08-18T18:59:45Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > I notice that several posters criticize the Witnesses because of their policy of "shunning, " as it’s usually called on this board, practiced against former members. > Why any person should object to this–it’s plainly expressed in Pauline letters–is beyond me, unless your philosophy is that all people are good and right and it’s wrong to shun anyone. > Unless, of course, the person is someone like Johnny Hart, whom you feel perfectly justified in calling a “douchebag.”:rolleyes: I assume by “any person,” you mean any Christian. It’s obvious why a non-Christian would not be convinced just because Paul said something. So here’s my Christian interpretation. It seems really strange to me that you think the choice is between cutting people completely out of your life and thinking that all people are good and right. In the same [passage of Scripture](http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/1-corinthians/5/) you are referencing, Paul specifically disclaims that interpretation. > [@](#): > > **1 Corinthians 5:9-10 (NWT)** > In my letter I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people, not meaning entirely with the sexually immoral people of this world or the greedy people or extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. Paul says it is impossible to not associate with any sinners without leaving the entire world behind. If Paul thinks that is impossible, there is no way he is talking about complete dissociation in the Scriptures that follow. Paul is talking about kicking someone out of the congregation. He’s not talking about shunning. People are to “stop keeping company” with someone, not to completely avoid any conversation unless absolutely necessary. You are not to break bread with someone, but not act like they no longer exist. And that’s only the first problem with your interpretation. You are applying it to entirely the wrong issue. Who is Paul talking about kicking out of the church? > [@](#): > > **1 Corinthians 5:1 (NWT)**: > Actually sexual immorality is reported among you, and such immorality as is not even found among the nations—of a man living with his father’s wife. That’s right, a guy who has done something so sinful that even the unbelievers would balk. He is having ongoing sexual relations with his stepmother. It is true that Paul makes this a bit more general a little later on, but what specifically does he talk about? > [@](#): > > **1 Corinthians 5:11 (NWT)**: > But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. Notice a distinct lack of mention of “former members”? Note it’s specifically about someone “called a brother”? So not only is the punishment harsher than indicated, it is being applied to the wrong situation. You are not to completely dissociate with people who leave the church. That’s the Scriptural basis for hating your shunning, but, as a Christian, there is a further reason. The practice is using Scripture to defend cultic practices. And I know that word is thrown around a lot, referring to doctrines people disagree with. That’s not what I mean here. I mean this is a practice specifically used by cults in order to manipulate and control their members. It, more than anything else is why I have a problem with Witnessism. And that practice is Isolation. What disfellowship does is allow you to completely cut off everyone from the outside world. It prevents them from having anyone they love who can make sure that they don’t fall into error. It is a powerful manipulation technique that can get those who adhere to it to believe anything. God’s word doesn’t need nor what those tactics. It does not need people’s free will to be subjugated. It does not need for the Church to be taken out of the world. We are in the world, but not of the world. As Jesus said, kicking people out of the congregation just means they are treated like the world. > [@](#): > > **Matthew 18:15-17 (NWT)** > > "Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go and reveal his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, so that on the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector. And who did Jesus eat with? Tax collectors and sinners. (Matthew 9:11). ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/71 "2014-08-18T19:27:06Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > You are real good at missing the point. I alluded to a thread that was active when Hart was very much alive. I have never called anyone a "douchebag. " Ooohh, you _alluded_ to it! And you point that out to someone who wasn’t a member when the thread was extant. That thread must have made a distinct impression on you. Still, you _MAY_ be an outlier in that respect. Perhaps if you _link_ to it, people might not miss the point. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/72 "2014-08-18T19:41:54Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > In the congregation I knew a divided family: The mother was a Witness, the father was a dyed-in-the-wool Baptist. (Their kids attended both services.) I was an Amway distributor at the time, and the mother ordered some goods from me, which I was to deliver to their home–when the father, an off - duty firefighter, would be home. I did so. I was cordial, so was he; the delivery went just fine; religion was not mentioned. 🙂 You were an AMWAY distributor? Eww. Where’s my shunning sash? ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/73 "2014-08-18T19:44:36Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > In the congregation I knew a divided family: The mother was a Witness, the father was a dyed-in-the-wool Baptist. (Their kids attended both services.) I was an Amway distributor at the time, and the mother ordered some goods from me, which I was to deliver to their home–when the father, an off - duty firefighter, would be home. I did so. I was cordial, so was he; the delivery went just fine; religion was not mentioned. 🙂 You were a JW _and_ an Amway salesman? Did the houses in your neighborhood just have signs next to their doorbells that showed your face and a red circle with a line over it? I kid. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/74 "2014-08-18T20:44:25Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > You were a JW _and_ an Amway salesman? Did the houses in your neighborhood just have signs next to their doorbells that showed your face and a red circle with a line over it? I kid. Of course you do. 🙂 But I didn’t want to make members of the congregation a captive list of potential customers, if that makes sense. I almost never mentioned Amway at meetings. I did not believe that should be a condition to my attendance. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/75 "2014-08-18T20:45:51Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > You were an AMWAY distributor? > > Eww. > > Where’s my shunning sash? Still fitted in its place in the wall, hanging from its sash weights. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/76 "2014-08-18T20:47:29Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Ooohh, you _alluded_ to it! And you point that out to someone who wasn’t a member when the thread was extant. > > That thread must have made a distinct impression on you. Still, you _MAY_ be an outlier in that respect. Perhaps if you _link_ to it, people might not miss the point. :dubious: I can, if you give me the thread number. I’m posting now on my smartphone. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/77 "2014-08-19T01:07:44Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Ooohh, you _alluded_ to it! And you point that out to someone who wasn’t a member when the thread was extant. > > That thread must have made a distinct impression on you. Still, you _MAY_ be an outlier in that respect. Perhaps if you _link_ to it, people might not miss the point. :dubious: > [@dougie\_monty](#): > > I can, if you give me the thread number. I’m posting now on my smartphone. I can only presume that my knowledge of **Ranger Jeff** not yet being a Doper when that thread was alive is why you think I know anything about it. I don’t though; all I know about **Ranger Jeff** is that he joined last year, and that Hart died in 2007, therefore the thread was before his time. I know nothing of the thread itself. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/78 "2014-08-19T01:31:55Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > To answer your first question: I am. > Second question: I very likely would. With my dismal social history I have little to lose anyway. So - lets focus on the second question for a bit - In your own words - what constitutes a ‘lie’ ? I’ll remind you what the Watchtower Organization states - [QUOTE=“Tracing All Things With Accuracy” - 2011 Yearbook - (p.13)] “In summary, the Writing Department insists on using only material that is accurate and truthful, even regarding seemingly insignificant details. As a result, “the faithful and discreet slave” can consistently supply spiritual food that brings honor to “the God of truth,” Jehovah.” [/QUOTE] [QUOTE= Watchtower 2011 Jul 15 p.12] “We are determined to be loyal to Jehovah and to his organization. This organization has never disappointed us and always gives us an abundance of pure waters of truth from God’s Word.” [/QUOTE] What would you think if it were shown that the Watchtower does not follow its own guidelines? ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/79 "2014-08-19T01:40:04Z")
> [@simster](#): > > So - lets focus on the second question for a bit - > > In your own words - what constitutes a ‘lie’ ? > > I’ll remind you what the Watchtower Organization states - > > What would you think if it were shown that the Watchtower does not follow its own guidelines? If. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/80 "2014-08-19T01:47:47Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > If. There’s no ‘IF’ about it - but we’re supposed to be having a conversation here - how about honestly answering the questions? THen we can get on to the business of “IF”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774.md?page=5)