# Would it be evil for me to give Jehovah Witnesses handouts from JWFacts.com when they come here? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 17, 2014, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774 "2014-08-17T20:41:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/101 "2014-08-20T01:06:29Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Those poor oppressed drinkers (“normal”? In a pig’s eye!), and unwed mothers…how dare anyone reproach them? :rolleyes: > > Your third paragraph puzzles me. Do you mean the Witnesses hated someone who had Down syndrome? I used to know a Witness family with a son like that… The fact you see those as reasonable responses to transgressions demonstrates how skewed your world view is. Most of us raise good children and lead ethical lives without ever having to threaten to shun them and certainly never having to actually do it. You’ve been brainwashed and you don’t even realize it. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/102 "2014-08-20T01:08:07Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > I have done research in various Watchtower publications. So far as I know, if an error was made, a subsequent publication has stated, “We stand corrected.” Not what I asked or implied - There is a difference between making an “error” and outright lieing or stating mistruths. I would ask for a cite or reference to the Watchtower outright admitting a lie - but most of the time, what they really do is simply change direction and never look back - when called on it - they call it “the light getting brighter”. What I am talking about here is [outright deception and lies](http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/misquotes-deception-lies.php#Lying) - things that can not be called a “mistake” or “error” - Remember - [QUOTE=Watchtower 2009 Feb 15 p.27] “Since Jehovah God and Jesus Christ completely trust the faithful and discreet slave, should we not do the same? [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Watchtower 2011 Jul 15 p.12] “We are determined to be loyal to Jehovah and to his organization. This organization has never disappointed us and always gives us an abundance of pure waters of truth from God’s Word.” [/QUOTE] > [@dougie\_monty](#): > > They use, and acknowledge, various outside sources, [ANd have been shown, repeatedly, to quote many of these sources incompletely, , mis-quoting them in such a way as to have you believe the source is stating the exact opposite, or in some cases very selectively quoting a part that may ‘agree’ with the point while ignoring the rest of the work that shows it to be false.](http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/misquotes-deception-lies.php#Misquoting) > [@dougie\_monty](#): > > and I have done likewise: An elder once asked me to research (long before the era of the Internet), in various encyclopedias, the source of the cross. (I still have the results of that research.) This I find highly suspect - to the point that I would say that I find it highly improbable that an \*\*\*Elder \*\*\*asked you to do outside research - given that the Watchtower Organization thru out its history has specifically warned and advised against it - [QUOTE=Watchtower 1967 Jun 1 p.338] “In Jehovah’s organization it is not necessary to spend a lot of time and energy in research, for there are brothers in the organization who are assigned to that very thing, … [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Kingdom Ministry Sep 2007] “Thus “the Faithful and discreet slave” does not endorse any literature, meetings or websites that are not produced or organized under its oversight. … For those that wish to do extra Bible study and research, we recommend that they explore Insight on the Scriptures…” [/QUOTE] and that, on the given subject, you could do enough research as to back up the JW teaching on the subject - [given this is one of the many things they have been the clearly dishonest about - using the techniques I outlined above.](http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/misquotes-deception-lies.php#Cross) But - with all that - you still avoided the very simple question I asked you - What - in your own words - is a lie? Would you knowingly associate with an individual - or group - that were shown to be liars? After all - [QUOTE=Is This Life All There Is? p.46] “… really, would you want to be even associated with a religion that had not been honest with you?” [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/103 "2014-08-20T06:06:51Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Not what I asked or implied - There is a difference between making an “error” and outright lieing or stating mistruths. I would ask for a cite or reference to the Watchtower outright admitting a lie - but most of the time, what they really do is simply change direction and never look back - when called on it - they call it “the light getting brighter”. > > What I am talking about here is [outright deception and lies](http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/misquotes-deception-lies.php#Lying) - things that can not be called a “mistake” or “error” - > > Remember - > > [ANd have been shown, repeatedly, to quote many of these sources incompletely, , mis-quoting them in such a way as to have you believe the source is stating the exact opposite, or in some cases very selectively quoting a part that may ‘agree’ with the point while ignoring the rest of the work that shows it to be false.](http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/misquotes-deception-lies.php#Misquoting) > > This I find highly suspect - to the point that I would say that I find it highly improbable that an \*\*\*Elder \*\*\*asked you to do outside research - given that the Watchtower Organization thru out its history has specifically warned and advised against it - > > and that, on the given subject, you could do enough research as to back up the JW teaching on the subject - [given this is one of the many things they have been the clearly dishonest about - using the techniques I outlined above.](http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/misquotes-deception-lies.php#Cross) > > But - with all that - you still avoided the very simple question I asked you - > > What - in your own words - is a lie? > > Would you knowingly associate with an individual - or group - that were shown to be liars? > > After all - My own words? If you want the BEST definition, I shall quote The Oxford English Dictionary, because I consider it to be the best authority on definitions, superior to my own ability. I’ll have it tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/104 "2014-08-20T12:17:29Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > My own words? If you want the BEST definition, I shall quote The Oxford English Dictionary, because I consider it to be the best authority on definitions, superior to my own ability. I’ll have it tomorrow. It’s a simple question, it really is. I can read the dictionary for myself - I want to know what YOU think a lie is - or what constitutes one. Why do you avoid it? Did you even read the rest of the post or the information provided? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/105 "2014-08-20T13:11:40Z")
I thought about debating dougie\_monty on an issue but then I noticed this nice concrete wall. Running into it head first is much more satisfying. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/106 "2014-08-20T13:32:30Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Those poor oppressed drinkers (“normal”? In a pig’s eye!), and unwed mothers…how dare anyone reproach them? :rolleyes: > > Your third paragraph puzzles me. Do you mean the Witnesses hated someone who had Down syndrome? I used to know a Witness family with a son like that… I’m going to go ahead and move my response to this to the pit. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=17655535#post17655535](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=17655535#post17655535) :mad: ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/107 "2014-08-20T15:30:06Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Those poor oppressed drinkers (“normal”? In a pig’s eye!), and unwed mothers…how dare anyone reproach them? :rolleyes: I remember reading about a preacher who caught a lot of flak from his followers for hanging out with tax collectors and prostitutes. I wonder if anything ever came of that kerfluffle? ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/108 "2014-08-20T15:37:23Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > I remember reading about a preacher who caught a lot of flak from his followers for hanging out with tax collectors and prostitutes. I wonder if anything ever came of that kerfluffle? :Snort: Who needed his presence more? ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/109 "2014-08-20T15:45:25Z")
> [@simster](#): > > It’s a simple question, it really is. > > I can read the dictionary for myself - I want to know what YOU think a lie is - or what constitutes one. > > Why do you avoid it? > > Did you even read the rest of the post or the information provided? I think I’d better point something out here: I am not afraid to rely on the dictionary. I have been using them since I was a kid, and I have literally worn out two dictionaries I’ve bought for myself over 45 years. You want my own words–well, where do you think I get my own words from? I don’t wave a wand. Your question pretty much demands extemporaneous phrasing. I don’t define words very well that way. As I see it you are entitled to a proper definition–which I will assimilate. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/110 "2014-08-20T15:57:22Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > I think I’d better point something out here: I am not afraid to rely on the dictionary. I have been using them since I was a kid, and I have literally worn out two dictionaries I’ve bought for myself over 45 years. > You want my own words–well, where do you think I get my own words from? I don’t wave a wand. > Your question pretty much demands extemporaneous phrasing. I don’t define words very well that way. As I see it you are entitled to a proper definition–which I will assimilate. You really need to use a “dictionary definition” here? As I said - I can read the dicitionary myself - so, don’t bother quoting one - here I’ll even do it for you - [QUOTE=[Lie Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lie)] Definition of LIE intransitive verb 1 : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive 2 : to create a false or misleading impression [/QUOTE] Done- moving on - :sheesh: - Go back now and re-read the post and the information it contains and comment on that. How many examples of a lie would it take? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/111 "2014-08-20T16:08:38Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > :Snort: Who needed his presence more? Very good. Now, who needs the examples and support of good, stable, family and social group more? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/112 "2014-08-20T16:11:35Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > I think I’d better point something out here: I am not afraid to rely on the dictionary. I have been using them since I was a kid, and I have literally worn out two dictionaries I’ve bought for myself over 45 years. > You want my own words–well, where do you think I get my own words from? I don’t wave a wand. I find societal attitudes about the dictionary as some sort of holy literary writ to be very odd. Why does it have to be the dictionary’s definition of lie? Given that a good dictionary sources its definitions from the speakers of the language, wouldn’t your definition of as common a word as lie be acceptable? You say that the OED has the best definition. What makes it the best? Its prestige? The sense of antiquity? Because it’s usually the version sitting on the lectern in the library? It’s definition of the verb lie is “a. intr. To tell a lie or lies; to utter falsehood; to speak falsely.” I’m not sure that’s much better than simster’s plain old merriam webster definition. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/113 "2014-08-20T16:18:38Z")
I’ve been reading this message board for over ten years, and I have seen some weasely avoidances of issues and facts. I think that taking a day to consult the OED before supplying a definition of “lie” is among the weaseliest. Should weasely have one L or two? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/114 "2014-08-20T16:27:30Z")
For those that are curious as to why I am asking **dougie\_monty** for his definition of “lie” - The JW and Watchtower organization like to engage in what is known as “[theocratic warfare strategy](http://www.silentlambs.org/Warfarequotes.htm)” - where its a “lie” only if the person you’re speaking to is otherwise deserving of the truth - something that they will deny (another lie) teaching. Of course, we’re not talking about ‘hiding’ a truth here - we’re talking about outright lies in the teachings - that they are giving to followers - people who ‘should be’ deserving of the truth. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/115 "2014-08-20T16:29:42Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I find societal attitudes about the dictionary as some sort of holy literary writ to be very odd. Why does it have to be the dictionary’s definition of lie? Given that a good dictionary sources its definitions from the speakers of the language, wouldn’t your definition of as common a word as lie be acceptable? You say that the OED has the best definition. What makes it the best? Its prestige? The sense of antiquity? Because it’s usually the version sitting on the lectern in the library? It’s definition of the verb lie is “a. intr. To tell a lie or lies; to utter falsehood; to speak falsely.” I’m not sure that’s much better than simster’s plain old merriam webster definition. Oh, thanks, Stickler, you saved me a trip to the library. 🙂 To all: I do not apologize for my choice of dictionary. The one I have at home is a 2 0 - year-old Random House. I will study your post and give you an answer within a few hours–not ‘quick and dirty.’ ---
**Author:** ![PorchePine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@PorchePine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PorchePine)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/116 "2014-08-20T16:36:56Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > I’ve been reading this message board for over ten years, and I have seen some weasely avoidances of issues and facts. I think that taking a day to consult the OED before supplying a definition of “lie” is among the weaseliest. Should weasely have one L or two? Use weaselesque…that way you don’t need to remember about\* l\*'s… Seriously, though…all this “taking time to consult this or that” and “studying posts” does smack of being weasely. Just answer the question already! ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/117 "2014-08-20T16:39:28Z")
No one has asked you to apologize for having a random house dictionary. It’s a perfectly serviceable dictionary; most are. I’m just amused and slightly bemused that the dictionary seems to hold a more immaculate place in the collective conscious than the bible even. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/118 "2014-08-20T16:47:04Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Oh, thanks, Stickler, you saved me a trip to the library. 🙂 > > To all: I do not apologize for my choice of dictionary. The one I have at home is a 2 0 - year-old Random House. > I will study your post and give you an answer within a few hours–not ‘quick and dirty.’ Dude, go to the app store on your phone and get the free Merriam-Webster app. And quit being so weaselesque! ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/119 "2014-08-20T16:54:04Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > as I see it, it makes sense to get rid of a bad apple. [QUOTE=Donny Osmond] One Bad Apple don’t spoil the whole darn bunch Oh I don’t care what they say I don’t care what you’ve heard [/QUOTE] > [@kayaker](#): > > You question Donny? Learn something new everyday department: I thought Jehovah Witness = Mormons.:smack: ---
**Author:** ![PorchePine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@PorchePine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PorchePine)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774/120 "2014-08-20T17:00:52Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Learn something new everyday department: I thought Jehovah Witness = Mormons.:smack: Nope. Both have their members go door to door recruiting, though. Mormons are much more forgiving about apostasy, though. My mom joined as an adult, was active for a few years, and then decided it wasn’t for her. Acquaintances and coworkers who are LDS still treat her in a friendly manner, invite her to (non-LDS related activities), and respectfully encourage her to come back to the fold. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-evil-for-me-to-give-jehovah-witnesses-handouts-from-jwfacts-com-when-they-come-here/695774.md?page=7)