# Would it be fair to ask Palin a Kitty Dukakis question about her daughter? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 8, 2008, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-fair-to-ask-palin-a-kitty-dukakis-question-about-her-daughter/462657 "2008-09-08T19:01:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-fair-to-ask-palin-a-kitty-dukakis-question-about-her-daughter/462657/21 "2008-09-08T21:08:13Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Funny how she also frames it as her own choice and not her daughter’s. I guess that tells us who really “chose” to keep this Federline baby. Actually it doesn’t. It shows us that Governor Palin saw the choice as hers; it does not establish that her daughter submitted to pressure, nor that the daughter disagrees with her mother’s position. She may well have wanted the baby–because she was lonely, because she loves kids, because she wanted to stick it to Mom, because she wanted her breasts to get bigger. Teenage girls do many strange things. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-fair-to-ask-palin-a-kitty-dukakis-question-about-her-daughter/462657/22 "2008-09-08T21:11:22Z")
> [@lavenderviolet](#): > > She has given birth to a child with Downs Syndrome, a situation where most other people choose abortion. No they don’t. > [@](#): > > And as if that weren’t enough, she has accepted her teenager’s pregnancy What does that mean, she’s “accepted” it? What would be the alternative to “accepting” it? > [@](#): > > I really don’t see why it is so hard to believe that the woman sincerely believes abortion is wrong and really does live her life accordingly. Nobody has any trouble believeing that. > [@](#): > > You can disagree with her views but I don’t see any sign that she is a hypocrite about abortion. She’s more conservative than I am, but I have a lot of respect for her in that she seems to live by the values she claims to believe in on the campaign trail. There is nothing special about not aborting a DS baby. Most people don’t/ Most pro-_choice_ people dn’t. I’m not giving her a cookie for making the same choice practically everybody else makes. What annoys me is that she doesn’t want it to _be_ a choice for anybody else. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-fair-to-ask-palin-a-kitty-dukakis-question-about-her-daughter/462657/23 "2008-09-08T21:14:48Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Seems to me that Palin is simply being consistent - I always thought that the “pro-life, except for rape” position lacked moral consistency (why is it somehow “not murder” if the dad was a rapist? Makes no sense to me - either it is really “murder” or it isn’t - if “murder” is okay for “rape-spawn”, why limit it to pre-birth?) So what if it’s consistent? It’s consistently extreme, bordering on sociopathic. The problem is not that it’s an inconsistent position but that it’s a psychotic and heartless position. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-fair-to-ask-palin-a-kitty-dukakis-question-about-her-daughter/462657/24 "2008-09-08T21:16:32Z")
> [@Enola\_Gay](#): > > I actually admire Palin for being consistent on this issue, in spite of not agreeing with her. What’s admirable about being consistently wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-fair-to-ask-palin-a-kitty-dukakis-question-about-her-daughter/462657/25 "2008-09-08T21:29:22Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What’s admirable about being consistently wrong? She BELIEVES that life begins at conception. How is that belief wrong? You can’t disprove it. It may not be what you or I believe, but that doesn’t make it wrong. I do\*\* not \*\*believe that life begins at conception, which is why I have no moral objection to abortion. But the exact point at which life begins is a matter of opinion. I have admiration for her position because at least she is true to it. I have a major problem with those who state that they believe life begins at conception, so therefore abortion is immoral…_but it’s okay to kill that life if the father is a rapist._ If you believe an embryo is a life, then how is that life any less worthwhile if it was conceived via rape? Apparently Palin believes life begins at conception and her actions and policies are consistent with that belief, which imo is admirable. ETA: this is the ONLY pro-life stance that I respect. I don’t agree with it, but I respect it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-fair-to-ask-palin-a-kitty-dukakis-question-about-her-daughter/462657/26 "2008-09-08T21:32:46Z")
> [@Enola\_Gay](#): > > She BELIEVES that life begins at conception. How is that belief wrong? You can’t disprove it. It may not be what you or I believe, but that doesn’t make it wrong. I wasn’t talking about the belief. I don’t care about the belief. What’s she’s wrong about is that she wants to use the power of the state to impose a mandatory adherence to that belief on everyone else. She’s wrong on what the _law_ should be. Her personal beliefs have no relevance to me. ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-fair-to-ask-palin-a-kitty-dukakis-question-about-her-daughter/462657/27 "2008-09-08T21:33:26Z")
> [@](#): > > No it doesn’t. It is possible to see a fetus as a human life, even one with equal rights to the mother (not a position I take) and still support abortion rights without being “a monster.” You’ll have to define abortion rights a bit more precisely before I can answer this question. unless we read additional facts into the question in the OP, then my opinion remains the same. Killing the fetus in this case would represent a monstrous failure of emmpathy and would be evidence of a horrific personal ethos. > [@](#): > > A person isn’t a monster if they wake up one morning and find lying next to them a person in advanced kidney failure, who has been connected to them while sleeping for life support purposes, and they then choose to unplug that person and continue with their life, even if they know that by unplugging them, it will cause death to the unfortunate kidney patient. The analogy is flawed, but even so I disagree. A person who made that choice would indeed be a monster. > [@](#): > > To assume someone must be a monster here is to assume every person who does not do the utmost to prevent the death of every other person in the universe is a monster. And that isn’t a defensible position, IMHO. Your logic is flawed. Taking specific and deliberate action to end a life is not equivalent to “[doing] the utmost to prevent the death of every other person in the universe.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-fair-to-ask-palin-a-kitty-dukakis-question-about-her-daughter/462657/28 "2008-09-08T21:52:01Z")
What is meant by “ending a life.” Everybody ends millions of lives everyday. Taking a shower ends lives. Taking antibiotics ends lives. Eating food requires ending lives. Framing it in terms of “ending a life” is loaded, BS language which avoids addressing the real dilemma. What it should really be about, in my opinion, is making a choice abbout what kind of law will cause the least human suffering. A embryo can’t suffer. A blastocyst at the “moment of conception” (not that there really is a single “moment”) cannot suffer. A 14 year old rape victim sure as hell _can_ suffer and forcing her to bear the child of a rapist aggravates that suffering to an inhuman degree. Any woman who could blithely ignore the emotional agony of her own child and force her to undergo such an ordeal, for the sake of something that _can’t_ suffer is morally depraved. The purely religious and scientifically utterly unsupported belief that zygotes are imbued with magical fairy spirits making them “persons” is not a justifiable excuse for imposing this decsion on _other_ people. Legal abortion causes less human suffering than illegal abortion. It’s that simple, and no one has to get one if they don’t want one. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-fair-to-ask-palin-a-kitty-dukakis-question-about-her-daughter/462657/29 "2008-09-08T21:55:28Z")
> [@Spiritus\_Mundi](#): > > Your logic is flawed. Taking specific and deliberate action to end a life is not equivalent to “[doing] the utmost to prevent the death of every other person in the universe.” Thou shalt not kill, but need not strive officiously to keep alive. Don’t buy it, never have. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-fair-to-ask-palin-a-kitty-dukakis-question-about-her-daughter/462657/30 "2008-09-08T22:03:44Z")
Sorry - I missed the edit window. To continue… Re **Spiritus Mundi** ’s Acts and Omissions Doctrine… You can save a life for a very small amount of money. An amount that for many of us causes no reduction in our life style. A person who chooses not to save that life, condemning a child in Africa, for example, to die from preventable disease, unnecessary famine, or other poverty related conditions, is not a “monster” in that situation. A 14 year old girl, raped and pregnant, who choses to terminate her pregnancy, is a “monster.” Even if I grant full equal rights to the fetus that I do to the (unnamed) African child, I still would not claim that one person is a monster in this situation, and another isn’t. Under your analysis, **Spiritus Mundi** , a person who choses not to forgo a single Starbucks Grande Skim Mocchacino a week in order to prevent a child suffering an abhorrent death is not a monster, where as a girl who choses to not go through the personal risk and psychological trauma of pregnancy after a violent rape, possibly one by a family member, is a monster. I am not a big fan of your ethical calculator. ---
**Author:** ![ASAKMOTSD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@ASAKMOTSD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASAKMOTSD)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-fair-to-ask-palin-a-kitty-dukakis-question-about-her-daughter/462657/31 "2008-09-08T22:29:51Z")
> [@lavenderviolet](#): > > She has given birth to a child with Downs Syndrome, a situation where most other people choose abortion. Would you say that those people who choose to keep their child with Down’s Syndrome also effectively abandon said child while they take a job requiring them to work long hours and travel extensively for at least 4 years, while their spouse works on either an oil pipeline or a fishing boat? Family values, indeed! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-fair-to-ask-palin-a-kitty-dukakis-question-about-her-daughter/462657/32 "2008-09-08T22:36:11Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Oh that’s ridiculous. Cite that “most other people choose abortion.” It’s over 90% in Europe. I couldn’t find any stats for the US, but I’d be surprised if we were so different from them as to be lower than 50%. [Cite](http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/65500197/abstract) ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-fair-to-ask-palin-a-kitty-dukakis-question-about-her-daughter/462657/33 "2008-09-08T22:37:40Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I wasn’t talking about the belief. I don’t care about the belief. What’s she’s wrong about is that she wants to use the power of the state to impose a mandatory adherence to that belief on everyone else. She’s wrong on what the _law_ should be. Her personal beliefs have no relevance to me. If one really believes that it is “murder”, then imposing this “belief” on others makes perfect sense. Why shouldn’t someone committing “murder” be restrained by society’s laws? We don’t allow _other_ murderers to argue that “your personal views that murder is bad have no relevance to me”. The argument is exactly over this “belief”. If one “believes” that a fetus is a “person” then it follows inevitably that you can’t kill it for your convenience; if one believes that it isn’t, as I do, then there is nothing wrong with disposing of it for any reason at all. Murder may be unique in this, as society must provide voice for the “victim” who by definition isn’t around to argue for themselves. > [@](#): > > So what if it’s consistent? It’s consistently extreme, bordering on sociopathic. The problem is not that it’s an inconsistent position but that it’s a psychotic and heartless position. That emoting, not arguing. You disagree with her; well, so do I. But unlike you, I see no need to assert that those who disagree with me are morally corrupt. They _may_ be, but the mere fact that they disagree isn’t _proof_ of it; and indeed, consistency on the hard questions is I think a virtue. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-fair-to-ask-palin-a-kitty-dukakis-question-about-her-daughter/462657/34 "2008-09-08T22:39:16Z")
That’s ten years old and it’s Europe. I still don’t even think I believe it. I would be surprised if it’s even a single percent point in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-fair-to-ask-palin-a-kitty-dukakis-question-about-her-daughter/462657/35 "2008-09-08T22:41:20Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s over 90% in Europe. I couldn’t find any stats for the US, but I’d be surprised if we were so different from them as to be lower than 50%. > > [Cite](http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/65500197/abstract) Oh the irony, it burns. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-fair-to-ask-palin-a-kitty-dukakis-question-about-her-daughter/462657/36 "2008-09-08T22:42:21Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > If one really believes that it is “murder”, then imposing this “belief” on others makes perfect sense. Not when that belief is rooted in an unproveable religious assumption. If I believe that “meat is murder,” does that mean I would be justified in imposing that belief on everyone else. > [@](#): > > Why shouldn’t someone committing “murder” be restrained by society’s laws? We don’t allow _other_ murderers to argue that “your personal views that murder is bad have no relevance to me”. Because you’re using a religious definition for “murder.” > [@](#): > > That emoting, not arguing. You disagree with her; well, so do I. But unlike you, I see no need to assert that those who disagree with me are morally corrupt. Those who have no empathy for suffering are morally corrupt. ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-fair-to-ask-palin-a-kitty-dukakis-question-about-her-daughter/462657/37 "2008-09-08T22:47:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Thou shalt not kill, but need not strive officiously to keep alive. > > Don’t buy it, never have. Dont’ buy what? These words exist only in your post, and I’m not clear what concept of mine you imagine that they represent. My statement was that taking specific action to kill one person is not ethically equivalent to failing to take every possible action to preserve the life of evrey person. My statemetn is true. Your shopping preferences notwithstanding. > [@](#): > > You can save a life for a very small amount of money. An amount that for many of us causes no reduction in our life style. A person who chooses not to save that life, condemning a child in Africa, for example, to die from preventable disease, unnecessary famine, or other poverty related conditions, is not a “monster” in that situation. No. I cannot. I can make a donation to any number of funds, and that donation has some statistical chance of benefiting a child. If you can point to a specific child in the underdeveloped country of your choice and demonstrat that my decision to keep a dollar in my pocket will certainly and incontrovertably end that child’s life - then you will have drawn a somewhat parallel situation. But you can’t. You don;t seem to be very rigorous in presenting these analgous models that you imagine demonstrate your osition, so perhaps it would be best if we just used teh specifics at hand. I mean, it isn’t like the hypothetical facts in question are that confusing or convoluted. Why not just make your case directly, instead of trying to argue through strained metaphor? > [@](#): > > Even if I grant full equal rights to the fetus that I do to the (unnamed) African child, I still would not claim that one person is a monster in this situation, and another isn’t. Well, that’s because you imagine that the situations are ethically equivalent. Unless the inescapable and proximate result of the decision to not send money is the death of a specific child, the 2 cases are not analagous. It is not, so they are not. > [@](#): > > Under your analysis, Spiritus Mundi, a person who choses not to forgo a single Starbucks Grande Skim Mocchacino a week in order to prevent a child suffering an abhorrent death is not a monster, where as a girl who choses to not go through the personal risk and psychological trauma of pregnancy after a violent rape, possibly one by a family member, is a monster. You are incorrect, but I suppose it would be too much to hope that you would actually repond to my argument rather than the straw man you have constructed. It would be correct to say, based upon what I have written, that _ **if** _ one accept the initial proposition that conception represents the boundary line of human existence then I would not consider drinking a Mocchachino to be ethically equivalent to having an abortion. As a matter of fact, even without that caveat I will argue that having an abortion is not ethically equivalent to having a cup of coffee. As another matter of fact, the idea that you find the two actions to be morally equivalent is one of the sadder things I have read today. > [@](#): > > I am not a big fan of your ethical calculator. Fair enough - I’m not a big fan of yours, either. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-fair-to-ask-palin-a-kitty-dukakis-question-about-her-daughter/462657/38 "2008-09-08T22:49:17Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@lavenderviolet](#): > > > > She has given birth to a child with Downs Syndrome, a situation where most other people choose abortion. > > No they don’t. Yes they do. > [@](#): > > A 2002 literature review of elective abortion rates found that 91–93% of pregnancies in the United States with a diagnosis of Down syndrome were terminated. [Cite.](http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/65500197/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0) Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-fair-to-ask-palin-a-kitty-dukakis-question-about-her-daughter/462657/39 "2008-09-08T22:51:40Z")
I don’t buy that cite. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-fair-to-ask-palin-a-kitty-dukakis-question-about-her-daughter/462657/40 "2008-09-08T22:51:41Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > That’s ten years old and it’s Europe. I still don’t even think I believe it. I would be surprised if it’s even a single percent point in the US. Here’s a 2007 study: [http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Aktion=ShowFulltext&ArtikelNr=106561&ProduktNr=224224](http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Aktion=ShowFulltext&ArtikelNr=106561&ProduktNr=224224) Termination rate from a retrospective review of pregnancies affected by Down syndrome at Strong Memorial Hospital of the University of Rochester from 1997 to 2005: 73%, which is significantly lower than other studies, but still quite high (see fig.1). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-fair-to-ask-palin-a-kitty-dukakis-question-about-her-daughter/462657.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-fair-to-ask-palin-a-kitty-dukakis-question-about-her-daughter/462657.md?page=3)