# Would it be justified to remove the negative aspects of human nature entirely through fantastical means? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 6, 2024, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-justified-to-remove-the-negative-aspects-of-human-nature-entirely-through-fantastical-means/1011273 "2024-12-06T20:58:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cmyers1980](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyers1980/32/11814_2.png) [@Cmyers1980](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cmyers1980)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2024, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-justified-to-remove-the-negative-aspects-of-human-nature-entirely-through-fantastical-means/1011273/21 "2024-12-07T22:51:34Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Define “rudeness”. It’s unjustified rudeness however you personally define it. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2024, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-justified-to-remove-the-negative-aspects-of-human-nature-entirely-through-fantastical-means/1011273/22 "2024-12-07T23:19:50Z")
Who decides what rudeness is justified and what isn’t? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2024, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-justified-to-remove-the-negative-aspects-of-human-nature-entirely-through-fantastical-means/1011273/23 "2024-12-07T23:38:43Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > What I would like to do, if we could, would be to eliminate the ability to enjoy causing pain or fear in another human/sensate creature. Not the ability to cause it – doctors and veterinarians among others need to be able to do so; among lots of others, actually – the child or the cat doesn’t want a shot but may need one, even though it hurts and it scares them, so anybody in charge of either one needs to be able to cause that pain and fear. And not the ability to take pleasure in being able to do one’s job well, even if that sometimes involves inflicting pain or fear, because otherwise we won’t get any doctors or veterinarians. Only the ability to take pleasure in the pain or fear itself. > > Some people already don’t have this, and many of them are still able to be rude when it’s useful, or aggressive when it’s necessary. So I don’t think it’s essential for being an effective human, even when defense is necessary. > > But it would end bullying. It would end rape, which would drastically upend human society, for the better. It would end some forms of animal abuse, though not the ones that occur through ignorance. It might even end voting for [fill-in-the-blank] specifically because it’ll hurt other people, even when that’s only a subconscious part of the reason. You realize that this would also completely eliminate comedy? Humor, after all, is our pleasure reaction to bad things happening - to others, and to ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2024, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-justified-to-remove-the-negative-aspects-of-human-nature-entirely-through-fantastical-means/1011273/24 "2024-12-07T23:44:55Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > … in a physical and social environment that bears darn near zero resemblance to where we now all live. With the exception of the Earth still being a Class M planet, darn near nothing relevant to proto-humans living in small bands is still adaptive today, and much of what did deliver us out of the trees and into walking upright is downright maladaptive in the 21st Century. Do you really think so? Obviously there are important differences, but I can easily imagine _far_ more disparate environments, and I’d say our evolved abilities are guiding us pretty well considering. Evolutionarily, by far the biggest problem is the reluctance of humans to reproduce in modern conditions with the ready availability of birth control. Literally one developed country (Israel) is above water on birthrate, and that’s a special case. > [@Alessan](#): > > You realize that this would also completely eliminate comedy? Humor, after all, is our pleasure reaction to bad things happening - to others, and to ourselves. I always heard it was the reaction to unexpected and tension-reducing things happening. I don’t think humour has to be bad? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2024, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-justified-to-remove-the-negative-aspects-of-human-nature-entirely-through-fantastical-means/1011273/25 "2024-12-07T23:53:26Z")
DC Comics had a period where they were deconstructing the tendency of older stories to meddle with the minds of civilians uninvited at the drop of a hat for the personal convenience of the heroes (usually to keep a secret identity). It didn’t occur to me as a kid, but it really is kind of a fucked up attitude to take towards someone else’s personal autonomy. This thread reminded me of that. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2024, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-justified-to-remove-the-negative-aspects-of-human-nature-entirely-through-fantastical-means/1011273/26 "2024-12-08T00:10:03Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I always heard it was the reaction to unexpected and tension-reducing things happening. I don’t think humour has to be bad? You’ve got it backwards - humor is a way of reducing tension by having a positive reaction to a negative event. Not being able to take pleasure from pain means not being able to laugh things off. ---
**Author:** ![Cmyers1980](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyers1980/32/11814_2.png) [@Cmyers1980](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cmyers1980)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2024, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-justified-to-remove-the-negative-aspects-of-human-nature-entirely-through-fantastical-means/1011273/27 "2024-12-08T00:22:36Z")
Who defines anything? For the sake of simplicity and so the thread doesn’t get bogged down in minutiae I think however you personally define it is a good enough metric. The OP is asking you your personal opinion so obviously your definition could only ever be personal. Would you press a a magic button that could eliminate unjustifiable rudeness for its own sake forever? That’s it. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2024, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-justified-to-remove-the-negative-aspects-of-human-nature-entirely-through-fantastical-means/1011273/28 "2024-12-08T00:25:44Z")
You’re missing the point. Since none of us can define unjustified rudeness, how can we impose any definition on human brains? No matter what definition is used, most people will disagree with it. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2024, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-justified-to-remove-the-negative-aspects-of-human-nature-entirely-through-fantastical-means/1011273/29 "2024-12-08T03:23:06Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > You realize that this would also completely eliminate comedy? Humor, after all, is our pleasure reaction to bad things happening - to others, and to ourselves. I don’t think that’s a pleasure reaction to bad things happening in that sense. And I don’t think all comedy is about bad things happening. We might lose slapstick, sure. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2024, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-justified-to-remove-the-negative-aspects-of-human-nature-entirely-through-fantastical-means/1011273/30 "2024-12-08T22:55:08Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Evolutionarily, by far the biggest problem is the reluctance of humans to reproduce in modern conditions with the ready availability of birth control. Literally one developed country (Israel) is above water on birthrate, and that’s a special case. We already have at least 10x the number of humans earth can sustain and you think failing to make even more babies is somehow a problem? I’m out. That’s beyond foolish. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2024, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-justified-to-remove-the-negative-aspects-of-human-nature-entirely-through-fantastical-means/1011273/31 "2024-12-08T23:07:32Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > We already have at least 10x the number of humans earth can sustain and you think failing to make even more babies is somehow a problem? You said we’re still evolving now. Purposely not reproducing is extremely maladaptive in the evolutionary sense, and a trait that natural selection will quickly eliminate if something else doesn’t change first. ---
**Author:** ![Zoobi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/13edae/32.png) [@Zoobi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoobi)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2024, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-justified-to-remove-the-negative-aspects-of-human-nature-entirely-through-fantastical-means/1011273/32 "2024-12-09T00:14:12Z")
The the word “developed” is the key to that sentence for that poster. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2024, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-justified-to-remove-the-negative-aspects-of-human-nature-entirely-through-fantastical-means/1011273/33 "2024-12-09T08:16:11Z")
Hopefully, in the future, the entire world will meet our definition of “developed”. If and when that happens, the global population will drop - which will be a good thing, at least for a generation or ten. After that, we’ll figure something out. My guess is that matters will probably correct themselves, as people who are inclined to have large families will naturally become the majority. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2024, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-justified-to-remove-the-negative-aspects-of-human-nature-entirely-through-fantastical-means/1011273/34 "2024-12-09T08:37:44Z")
IIRC, this was the plot of a book by Stanislaw Lem. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2024, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-justified-to-remove-the-negative-aspects-of-human-nature-entirely-through-fantastical-means/1011273/35 "2024-12-09T10:20:44Z")
Lem has a lot to say about this sort of dilemma. In The Star Diaries, Tichy encounters a civilisation that has near omnipotence. These entities have the ability to change anyone’s mind in any way to make them believe anything. However they do not, because their credo is ‘non agam’ (do not act), and by not acting they preserve freedom. Even Iain Bank’s The Culture do not act to remove ‘rudeness’, or a dozen other annoying traits of human civilisation; their citizens revel in their disrespect, and several of the human characters in the stories are murderers and borderline psychopaths. Sure, the Minds and their slapdrones will act to prevent their worst excesses, but this often seems to be a case of ‘non agam’ and bad things happen anyway. After all, they are supposed to be anarchists. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2024, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-justified-to-remove-the-negative-aspects-of-human-nature-entirely-through-fantastical-means/1011273/36 "2024-12-09T19:15:01Z")
If we’re moving to fictional examples, there is the _greatly_ flawed Sci-Fi ( with strong fantasy tropes, but it’s all scifi) novel “There Will be Dragons” by John Ringo. It’s actually a free download (being the first in a series) from Baen’s free library. > **[There Will be Dragons](https://www.baen.com/there-will-be-dragons.html)** > > Paradise Lost > In the future there is no want, no war, no disease nor ill-timed death. The world is a paradise—and then, in a moment, it ends. The council that controls the Net falls out and goes to war. Everywhere people who have never known a moment... WARNING - Ringo, along with some other authors I chose not to mention tends to have what I would consider _unhealthy_ male / female relationships in their writing. Others might just say they embrace less conventional relationships. I found this and other novels by the author to be good, but that the emphasis on those relationships sometimes detracted from my enjoyment. YMMV. Anyway, this is, per the OP’s mention, a post-scarcity AI empowered utopia, with sufficient power and control and observation to make most anything possible, although it does touch on the dropping birth rate, which becomes an excuse for change. It does not go well. ---
**Author:** ![vbob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vbob/32/4439_2.png) [@vbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vbob)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2024, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-justified-to-remove-the-negative-aspects-of-human-nature-entirely-through-fantastical-means/1011273/37 "2024-12-09T19:34:11Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I don’t necessarily consider rudeness a negative characteristic. It can be an aspect of defiance, of rebellion, of creativity, of honesty, and of a desire to change society for the better. I don’t want to live in a world where rudeness is forbidden, and anyone who thinks otherwise can go fuck themselves. In my 37 years of assisting art students from all over the world with thesis projects, I soon came to realize I was hired, and paid, to help ALL of them. Some were gracious with their queries, some belligerent with intractable problems, many just incomprensible - it was certainly EASIER to help the friendly grateful ones, but often more rewarding to engage with the others. The students presented on several many varieties of spectrum - I posited a ‘new’ one that I needed to understand and tolerate: “Asshole to Angel” ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2024, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-justified-to-remove-the-negative-aspects-of-human-nature-entirely-through-fantastical-means/1011273/38 "2024-12-09T19:56:31Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Indeed, in the hypothetical world where we understand the brain and related genes much better than now, we may arrive at ways of making the human experience much richer for all; not just better vision, say, but I mean richer emotionally. > …it’s a pretty hard thing for us to conceive of, so I don’t think I’ve ever seen the latter attempted in sci fi. The closest you get, is a depiction of someone feeling too much of a sense of humor, say, and so laughing ecstatically at everything. But how about completely new psychological states? There are examples; Olaf Stapledon took a stab at it in Last and First Men and Star Maker, both of which heavily focused on what we’d call transhumanism today (or the nonhuman equivalent. Interestingly, one of the most common outcomes was _failure._ A species would try to improve itself and end up with an unforeseen result, or the “improvement” would be a dead end or worse. A common one was natural or artificial group minds that fell into a “the lowest common denominator dominates everything” trap and stagnated. Or you ended up with entire species that were violently insane superhuman “failed ascensions” rampaging across the universe, for the worst cases. Or for a mildly example there was a posthuman race that was tormented by some subtle psychological issue that they couldn’t describe to their creators and went voluntarily extinct after designing their successors. I do think he made a valid point that even really well meaning people fiddling with the psychology of a species might cause disaster just by screwing up. I do think that human psychology is badly flawed and could be improved; but even ignoring the likelihood of bad intentions on the part of anyone trying are we competent enough to actually do so? At the very least any such attempt should be taken carefully and slowly, and not with the entire population at once. A “grand redesign” of all humanity is just asking for absolute disaster. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2025, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-justified-to-remove-the-negative-aspects-of-human-nature-entirely-through-fantastical-means/1011273/39 "2025-01-18T23:07:46Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Hopefully, in the future, the entire world will meet our definition of “developed”. If and when that happens, the global population will drop - which will be a good thing, at least for a generation or ten. After that, we’ll figure something out. My guess is that matters will probably correct themselves, as people who are inclined to have large families will naturally become the majority. If civilisation doesn’t collapse due to the inverted population pyramid, or revert to 3rd world status due to too-rapidly changing demographics, the Amish and Quiverful and Haredim will inherit the earth. IMO none of those outcomes are good. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2025, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-justified-to-remove-the-negative-aspects-of-human-nature-entirely-through-fantastical-means/1011273/40 "2025-01-18T23:12:47Z")
Margaret Atwood’s novel _Oryx and Crake_ is about a mad scientist who tries to create human race 2.0, and to make sure his experiment takes, also creates a global pandemic that kills everybody (including himself). The genetically-modified humanoids leave the lab and go out into the world. The mad scientist (Crake) had genetically programmed his creations to reproduce by pure instinct, like animals, with zero sexual jealousy or romance. He also programmed them to be free of religion. Spoiler alert, at the very end of the novel, the new humanoids invent an ad hoc religion all on their own. Atwood seems to be suggesting that, even with the most extreme intervention imaginable, it’s impossible to de-religionize us. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-justified-to-remove-the-negative-aspects-of-human-nature-entirely-through-fantastical-means/1011273.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-justified-to-remove-the-negative-aspects-of-human-nature-entirely-through-fantastical-means/1011273.md?page=3)