# Would it be possible for abuse victims to sue the Catholic church, or a part of it ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 7, 2010, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-possible-for-abuse-victims-to-sue-the-catholic-church-or-a-part-of-it/535261 "2010-04-07T10:58:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-possible-for-abuse-victims-to-sue-the-catholic-church-or-a-part-of-it/535261/1 "2010-04-07T10:58:09Z")
Would it be possible, in the US, for abuse victims to sue the Catholic church, or a part of it ? And actually win? And who would pay the compensation money? In the Netherlands, it made headlines last month that the Dutch Catholic Church 's chosen insurance company had earmarked a cool one million dollar (!) to settle claims from victims of past sexual abuse by Church officials in the Netherlands. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-possible-for-abuse-victims-to-sue-the-catholic-church-or-a-part-of-it/535261/2 "2010-04-07T11:33:12Z")
The Catholic Church has been sued many times over this issue and has paid out many claims and has judgments against it. They’ve sold property to pay out claims and paid millions and millions of dollars to people/groups.(I’m sure its been hundreds of millions by now) I’m sure some was paid by the Church, and by insurance companies. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-possible-for-abuse-victims-to-sue-the-catholic-church-or-a-part-of-it/535261/3 "2010-04-07T12:11:03Z")
Thanks, I didn’t know that. Can you point to some cases, **raindog**? It would be interesting to know \*who \*the victims sued, in a legal sense; the Church as an institute that provided insufficient care; or individuals of whom the Church employed (and does the church, actually, _employ_ nuns and priests, in teh sense that they can sue them; or are nuns and priest strictly speaking \*members \*of an organization instead of employees?); And would the church that paid be a diocese, a parish, or would the money come out of some Vatican bank account? ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-possible-for-abuse-victims-to-sue-the-catholic-church-or-a-part-of-it/535261/4 "2010-04-07T12:27:34Z")
I’m running out to work, and I suspect that other Dopers will have provided cites by the time I get back. In the US-----for a few years now-----there are news reports of this particular Dioceses has paid out $XXXM and this particular Dioceses has (or will) be forced to declare bankruptcy, another is selling property to pay claims etc etc etc. tomndebb or someone else may be able to shed light on their legal structures (it appears that each Dioceses is a separate legal entity). I seem to remember L.A., Boston, and several others had legal troubles. Its been fairly widely covered in the US news. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-possible-for-abuse-victims-to-sue-the-catholic-church-or-a-part-of-it/535261/5 "2010-04-07T12:52:43Z")
As I understand it (and I could be completely wrong - going off hazy half-forotten memories here), it’s not a single “company” - it’s more like a crapload of franchises. So you’d due a diocese (franchise). Priests etc. are employed by the diocese, I believe. That makes the Pope less a CEO and more a figurehead, albeit one with an incredible amount of influence. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-possible-for-abuse-victims-to-sue-the-catholic-church-or-a-part-of-it/535261/6 "2010-04-07T13:03:37Z")
And of course that’s not counting the initial legal defense, which was that priests were “independent contractors” and therefore the diocese wasn’t financially responsible for their criminal wrongdoing. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-possible-for-abuse-victims-to-sue-the-catholic-church-or-a-part-of-it/535261/7 "2010-04-07T13:04:19Z")
[Here is one of many.](http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2010/apr/07/moment-of-truth-court-documents-unsealed-in-sex/) From the linked article: > [@](#): > > The Catholic Diocese of Memphis settled a priest sexual-abuse lawsuit for $2 million, but now, a year later, the case is revealing a much broader and more detailed picture of abuse and secrecy in the diocese. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-possible-for-abuse-victims-to-sue-the-catholic-church-or-a-part-of-it/535261/8 "2010-04-07T15:13:48Z")
Here’s a little background about the cases in [Los Angeles](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_abuse_scandal_in_the_Catholic_archdiocese_of_Los_Angeles). The suits are against individuals dioceses, and the bishops of those dioceses. Unrelated to both Catholics and sex abuse, the Episcopal church in [California is suing individual parishes who have broken away and affiliated with other churches](http://www.modbee.com/2010/02/11/1045439/episcopal-diocese-sues-turlock.html). The suits are to determine whether the parishes or the diocese actually owns the physical assets of the parishes. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-possible-for-abuse-victims-to-sue-the-catholic-church-or-a-part-of-it/535261/9 "2010-04-07T15:35:23Z")
Wikipedia article on [settlements and bankruptcies in Catholic sex abuse cases](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlements_and_bankruptcies_in_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases). It lists settlements that total hundreds of millions of dollars, and I doubt that it’s comprehensive. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-possible-for-abuse-victims-to-sue-the-catholic-church-or-a-part-of-it/535261/10 "2010-04-07T22:38:40Z")
So far, all the successful lawsuits have been against individual dioceses, and the local bishop, as head of the dioceses. But a recent lawsuit, in Kentucky, is against the whole church, and the Pope directly. It claims that the cardinals and bishops are in effect ‘employees’ of the Pope, and following his orders. Especially as the Pope was personally knowledgeable, and made decisions to not respond in some of these cases, according to the suit. The plaintiffs are asking that the Pope be required to testify under oath as to what he knew, and when he knew it. The church is fighting this lawsuit, even opposing the request to have the pope respond under oath. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-possible-for-abuse-victims-to-sue-the-catholic-church-or-a-part-of-it/535261/11 "2010-04-07T23:07:18Z")
The cases in the US have had each diocese as a separate legal entity without recourse to entities higher up in the hierarchy, such as the Vatican. I suspect that there is now sufficient evidence to hold the Vatican as partially responsible as they have the capacity to issue orders and expect them to be followed and now there is evidence that the Vatican sent abusing priests from one diocese to another without informing them of the risk. If this were not a religion, long ago the parent organization would have shared responsibility. It’s status as a religion has protected it. As I mentioned, I don’t think that will continue. ---
**Author:** ![TheFifthYear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@TheFifthYear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFifthYear)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-possible-for-abuse-victims-to-sue-the-catholic-church-or-a-part-of-it/535261/12 "2010-04-07T23:29:35Z")
To take it to another level of specificity, (and this may somewhat vary by jurisdiction, I’m not 100% sure), but for example, in Chicago, you would sue “The Catholic Bishop of Chicago, a corporation sole”. From Blacks: “Corporation Sole: A series of successive persons holding an office; a continuous legal personality that is attributed to successive holders of certain monarchical or ecclesiastical positions, such as kings, bishops, rectors, vicars, and the like. This continuous personality is viewed, by the legal fiction, as having the qualities of a corporation.” Suits against the archdiocese are the only context in which I’ve seen “a corporation sole.” Also, fwiw, in my experience most plaintiffs got it wrong on the first try but we\* would send them a nice letter telling them who they should be suing. \*I once worked for a law firm that did some work for the local archdiocese. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-possible-for-abuse-victims-to-sue-the-catholic-church-or-a-part-of-it/535261/13 "2010-04-07T23:48:10Z")
[The sordid tale of the Mount Cashel Orphanage in Newfoundland](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Cashel_Orphanage). > [@](#): > > On April 5, 1992, the Christian Brothers of Ireland in Canada formally apologized to the victims of physical and sexual abuse at the Mount Cashel Orphanage. > > In response to the Hughes Inquiry, and facing dozens of civil lawsuits, the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador acknowledged its responsibility in 1997 as a result of having sent wards of the state to the Mount Cashel Orphanage and paid a settlement of $11.25 million to approximately 40 former residents who were victims of sexual and physical abuse. The provincial government then began a process of seeking to reclaim this money from the assets of the Christian Brothers of Ireland in Canada.[15] > > The CBIC announced the closure of the Mount Cashel Orphanage on November 27, 1989 and it was permanently shuttered the following year after the last resident was relocated to another facility. The court-ordered compensation to victims saw the CBIC demolish the orphanage and sell the land to property developers for $8 million, which was paid to victims. CBIC properties across Canada became the target of court-ordered liquidation. > > In December 2000 The StarPhoenix reported that leaders of the Christian Brothers at the Vatican conspired to transfer ownership of the order’s assets out of Canada to prevent court-ordered liquidation to pay compensation to sexual and physical abuse victims. It was also alleged that the Archdiocese of Vancouver conspired to shield Vancouver College and St. Thomas More Collegiate. On July 27, 2002 an out of court settlement of $19 million was paid by the two schools to the liquidating company Deloitte and Touche, appointed to oversee the liquidation of the Christian Brothers of Ireland in Canada. A news release from Deloitte and Touche stated that the settlement was “reasonable” despite the schools have a real estate value of $40 million at the time. A lawyer for Mount Cashel victims was also quoted in opposition to any of the $19 million settlement being used to pay the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador, arguing that it should be used for compensating the victims.[16] > > From 1996-2004, approximately $27 million in compensation was paid to roughly 100 victims of physical and sexual abuse at the Mount Cashel Orphanage by the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador and the Christian Brothers of Ireland in Canada.[17] ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-possible-for-abuse-victims-to-sue-the-catholic-church-or-a-part-of-it/535261/14 "2010-04-08T13:12:15Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > So far, all the successful lawsuits have been against individual dioceses, and the local bishop, as head of the dioceses. > > But a recent lawsuit, in Kentucky, is against the whole church, and the Pope directly. It claims that the cardinals and bishops are in effect ‘employees’ of the Pope, and following his orders. Especially as the Pope was personally knowledgeable, and made decisions to not respond in some of these cases, according to the suit. > > The plaintiffs are asking that the Pope be required to testify under oath as to what he knew, and when he knew it. The church is fighting this lawsuit, even opposing the request to have the pope respond under oath. Wow. As the Vatican is, in fact, a separate nation (so, not a part of Italy) forcing the Pope to testify would amount to forcing the titular head of a foreign state to testify. Have there ever been any instances when a foreign head of state was forced to testify in an US lawsuit? What if he refused to come? Would he be accused of obstructing justice? Could he even be arrested if he set foot on USA soil? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-possible-for-abuse-victims-to-sue-the-catholic-church-or-a-part-of-it/535261/15 "2010-04-08T13:50:17Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > Wow. As the Vatican is, in fact, a separate nation (so, not a part of Italy) forcing the Pope to testify would amount to forcing the titular head of a foreign state to testify. Have there ever been any instances when a foreign head of state was forced to testify in an US lawsuit? What if he refused to come? Would he be accused of obstructing justice? Could he even be arrested if he set foot on USA soil? :eek: I assume he would be handled the same way the capo di tutti capi of the mafia (were there such an entity) would be handled, correct? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-possible-for-abuse-victims-to-sue-the-catholic-church-or-a-part-of-it/535261/16 "2010-04-08T14:01:03Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > Wow. As the Vatican is, in fact, a separate nation (so, not a part of Italy) forcing the Pope to testify would amount to forcing the titular head of a foreign state to testify. Have there ever been any instances when a foreign head of state was forced to testify in an US lawsuit? What if he refused to come? Would he be accused of obstructing justice? Could he even be arrested if he set foot on USA soil? :eek: International law clearly recognizes immunity of heads of state from criminal prosecution. In the United States, the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act, 28 USC § 1330 et seq, provides immunity from suit for a foreign state, defined at 28 U.S.C. § 1603(a), (b). Most federal courts have concluded that individuals other than heads-of-state are also immune as “agents or instrumentalities” of the foreign state. ---
**Author:** ![gazpacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6f9a4e/32.png) [@gazpacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gazpacho)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-possible-for-abuse-victims-to-sue-the-catholic-church-or-a-part-of-it/535261/17 "2010-04-08T14:48:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > International law clearly recognizes immunity of heads of state from criminal prosecution. > > In the United States, the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act, 28 USC § 1330 et seq, provides immunity from suit for a foreign state, defined at 28 U.S.C. § 1603(a), (b). Most federal courts have concluded that individuals other than heads-of-state are also immune as “agents or instrumentalities” of the foreign state. What was the legal principle that allowed Manuel Noriega to be prosecuted? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-possible-for-abuse-victims-to-sue-the-catholic-church-or-a-part-of-it/535261/18 "2010-04-08T14:58:16Z")
> [@gazpacho](#): > > What was the legal principle that allowed Manuel Noriega to be prosecuted? He wasn’t a head of state when he was arrested. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-possible-for-abuse-victims-to-sue-the-catholic-church-or-a-part-of-it/535261/19 "2010-04-08T15:13:37Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > Wow. As the Vatican is, in fact, a separate nation (so, not a part of Italy) forcing the Pope to testify would amount to forcing the titular head of a foreign state to testify. Have there ever been any instances when a foreign head of state was forced to testify in an US lawsuit? What if he refused to come? Would he be accused of obstructing justice? Could he even be arrested if he set foot on USA soil? :eek: I posted this in the Pit thread: [Can the Pope be charged as a criminal?](http://www.thestar.com/news/world/vatican/abusescandal/article/790218--can-the-pope-be-charged-as-a-criminal) The answer is ‘maybe’. > [@](#): > > …senior British lawyers are now examining whether the Pope should have immunity as a head of state and whether he could be prosecuted under the principle of universal jurisdiction for an alleged systematic cover-up of sexual abuses by priests. > > Universal jurisdiction – a concept in international law – allows judges to issue warrants for nearly any visitor accused of grievous crimes, no matter where they live. British judges have been more open to the concept than those elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![gazpacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6f9a4e/32.png) [@gazpacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gazpacho)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-possible-for-abuse-victims-to-sue-the-catholic-church-or-a-part-of-it/535261/20 "2010-04-08T15:19:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > He wasn’t a head of state when he was arrested. So it is just a matter of political will then. If there was enough political will the Vatican could be invaded and the pope stripped of his head of state status and he could be brought to trial. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-possible-for-abuse-victims-to-sue-the-catholic-church-or-a-part-of-it/535261.md?page=2)