# Would it be racist to call **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 5, 2009, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-racist-to-call/501994 "2009-07-05T17:56:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Nation](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@Nation](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nation)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-racist-to-call/501994/1 "2009-07-05T17:56:54Z")
the Miss USA Pageant the Miss White USA Pageant? I mean, we already have Miss Black USA, so why not Miss White USA? And why when blacks complain about equality do they have a pageant where only blacks can compete, and yet they compete in other competitions as well? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-racist-to-call/501994/2 "2009-07-05T18:15:07Z")
Well, if it was the Miss White USA Pageant it would be a different one from the Miss USA Pageant. And how would you define which contestants are white enough to enter? Would birracial women be able to enter both? Would one who had been in one of them not be able to enter the other one? What would you do about White Hispanics? I don’t know whether it would be racist, but it sure would be complicated and difficult to sell. ---
**Author:** ![StaudtCJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@StaudtCJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StaudtCJ)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-racist-to-call/501994/3 "2009-07-05T18:25:28Z")
Along the same lines, I’ve wondered how “black” you have to be to be in the Miss Black USA pageant. Do they limit based on skin color or ancestry? I’ve seen some lovely cafe mocha with extra milk skin tones and some breathtakingly dramatic dark unsweetened chocolate skin tones, but no definition of how “black” is “black enough”. Anyway, back on topic. Google isn’t helping me find anything but anecdotes on potential reasons there is a Miss Black USA pageant. I’m very sure that lots of people would be up in arms about a Miss Caucasian USA pageant, screaming about racism. Potential reasons range from the idea that “White” people aren’t a minority, to claiming it would be a reversion to segregation. I think Nava hit on a big thing, though. People wouldn’t spend money on it, and the pageants are money-making enterprises. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-racist-to-call/501994/4 "2009-07-05T19:12:42Z")
While there are factual answers to be had in this, I think the best course is to move it to Great Debates. **samclem** Moderator, General Questions ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-racist-to-call/501994/5 "2009-07-05T19:26:41Z")
> [@Nation](#): > > the Miss USA Pageant the Miss White USA Pageant? I mean, we already have Miss Black USA, so why not Miss White USA? And why when blacks complain about equality do they have a pageant where only blacks can compete, and yet they compete in other competitions as well? Beauty pageants are designed to raise money from sponsors to enrich the promoters. As an incentive, most such pageants have invested in providing scholarships to their winners. When the Miss Black America Contest was formed, black women were barred from entry, so it was a way of getting the same benefits–money for promoters, scholarships for women–that were denied one section of the population. Once black women were admitted to the Miss America pageants, the promoters of the Miss Black America pageants saw no reason to shut down their operation, so it continues. If you would like to establish a Miss White America pagreant, go ahead. No law prohibits it. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-racist-to-call/501994/6 "2009-07-05T19:30:58Z")
Miss Black USA was created in 1986. Who wants to bet that up until then, Miss USA was virtually synonymous with Miss (White) USA? It’s not like the event was just created last week–it was likely inspired to create an alternative to a pageant system that was probably much less diverse than it is today. At this point, it’s over 20 years old and more of a tradition than something that might be characterized as “important” to the community (and one that still earns money and gives out scholarships, which is usually the raison d’etre of such enterprises anyway). ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-racist-to-call/501994/7 "2009-07-05T19:53:59Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > When the Miss Black America Contest was formed, black women were barred from entry, so it was a way of getting the same benefits–money for promoters, scholarships for women–that were denied one section of the population. Once black women were admitted to the Miss America pageants, the promoters of the Miss Black America pageants saw no reason to shut down their operation, so it continues. Well, continuing to discriminate based on color would be a reason to shut down, but i believe your facts are incorrect. Do you have a cite that black women were barred from entering the Miss America contest prior to 1968 (the first year the Miss Black America Contest was held)? I know the first black woman to win a state title and make it as a contestant didn’t happen until 1970, but I haven’t found a cite that black women were barred from entering. Also, as the previous poster mentioned, Miss Black USA was created in 1986, which is the exclusively black contest which the OP is talking about. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-racist-to-call/501994/8 "2009-07-05T19:55:13Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > If you would like to establish a Miss White America pagreant, go ahead. No law prohibits it. The question the OP raises is not one of legality, but one of racism. Of course a Miss White USA pagent would be racist, just as a Miss Black USA is racists. Some people will justify the latter because of the minority status of Blacks and because of historical (and current) racism against Blacks. But that really doesn’t cut it. Racism is racism, even if some types can be more harmful than others. ---
**Author:** ![torie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@torie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/torie)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-racist-to-call/501994/9 "2009-07-05T20:41:37Z")
Well, for the same reason there is a BET but no WET. Because every other channel is WET. White culture is the default. Often throughout history, in order for black people to play, they had to create their own games. I think anyone who thinks those days have passed and there is no longer any need for such things are a little naive. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-racist-to-call/501994/10 "2009-07-05T20:56:46Z")
Well, if we go by the numbers for Miss USA, Black women have won 2 of the last 10 contests, which is statistically more than their representation in the general population. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-racist-to-call/501994/11 "2009-07-05T22:03:17Z")
Is the [Miss Polish American](http://www.misspolishamerican.com/CONTACT%20PAGE.html) contest racist. How about the [Miss Italian American](http://www.iaccrochester.org/italian.htm) Pageant? Note that the Italian contest (and probably the Polish one as well, though I didn’t bother to dig around for the rules) are explicitly limited to people of Italian heritage. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-racist-to-call/501994/12 "2009-07-05T22:12:38Z")
Hmm, board ate my last paragraph, shoulda been: Black is an ethnic group in the states much the same way Irish-Americans or Italian Americans are. While you can argue whether ‘white’ is also such an ethnic group, historically white has meant not any specific group but simply ‘not white’, and ‘white’ groups those that excluded or worked against blacks (white supremacists, all-white social clubs, etc.). Which is why, though you can legally start a White whatever group (as **tomndebb** pointed out), everyone will assume your a racist prick if you do, while if you start an Irish American group or a Black group, people will just assume your celebrating your ethnic heritage. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-racist-to-call/501994/13 "2009-07-06T02:30:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, if we go by the numbers for Miss USA, Black women have won 2 of the last 10 contests, which is statistically more than their representation in the general population. And Texans win disproportionately, as do blondes. This is indicative of absolutely nothing. It’s always a puzzlement why it’s so deeply threatening to the white majority, which holds and will continue to hold a disproportionate share of societal power, when minority groups create organizations or celebrations just for themselves. The fact that a Miss Black USA or Miss Black America pageant exists means absolutely _nothing_, has absolutely zero impact on the lives of anyone outside the black community. Why is it such a scandal that, having been locked out of the “regular” pageantry circuit (which, sadly, remains the #1 unified source of college scholarships for women in the U.S.) by convention if not by official rule, we set up our own analog? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-racist-to-call/501994/14 "2009-07-06T03:02:53Z")
> [@](#): > > And Texans win disproportionately, as do blondes. This is indicative of absolutely nothing. It certainly calls into doubt the claim that the Miss USA competition is really “Miss White USA”, as some claim. Back when I was in seventh or eighth grade, we had a speaker come to the school who was rather over-the-top in his views on black culture (Jesus was black, all worthwhile advances in civilization were of black origin, etc.). One student asked why it was OK to have a Miss Black America pageant, and he said that it was because the Miss America pageant was a white pageant. This while the currently-reigning Miss America was [Debbye Turner](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debbye_Turner). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-racist-to-call/501994/15 "2009-07-06T03:37:09Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > When the Miss Black America Contest was formed, black women were barred from entry,… That is just not true. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-racist-to-call/501994/16 "2009-07-06T04:00:16Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > That is just not true. Yes, it is. > [@](#): > > In 1935, Talent was added to the competition. At the time, non-white women were barred from competing, a restriction that was codified in the pageant’s “Rule number seven,” which stated that “contestants must be of good health and of the white race.” No African American women participated until 1970, although African Americans did appear in musical numbers as far back as 1923, when they were cast as slaves. Until at least 1940, contestants were required to complete a biological questionnaire tracing their ancestry.[2][3][4] > **[Miss America](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miss_America)** > > Miss America is an annual competition that is open to women from the United States between the ages of 18 and 28. Originating in 1921 as a "bathing beauty revue", the contest is judged on competition segments with scoring percentages: Private Interview (30%) – a 10-minute press conference-style interview with a panel of judges, On Stage Question (10%) – answering a judge's question onstage, Talent or HER Story (20%) – a performance talent or 90 second speech, Health and Fitness (20%) – demo Th... ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-racist-to-call/501994/17 "2009-07-06T04:10:56Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > That is just not true. > [@](#): > > The [pageant’s](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/missamerica/peopleevents/e_inclusion.html) long history of excluding women of color dates from its beginnings. At some point in the 1930s, it was formalized in the notorious rule number seven of the Miss America rule book. Instituted under the directorship of Lenora Slaughter, rule number seven stated that “contestants must be of good health and of the white race.” Miss Black America founded in 1968. 2 yrs. before first black woman competed. Of course Miss Black USA was founded in 1986. 2 yrs. after Vanessa Williams. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-racist-to-call/501994/18 "2009-07-06T04:12:48Z")
I think the first thing that needs to be asked when someone suggests that an organization be restricted by race is, “Is there a good reason to restrict this to a particular race?” Well, it’s fairly well documented that there’s a strong tendency in our culture to devalue black standards of beauty. IIRC, one of the major points of evidence offered up in _Brown v. the Board of Education_ was a study that showed that black girls, when presented with two dolls of different races, that were otherwise identical, and then asked to pick which one was the prettier one, would almost invariably pick the white doll. So one could argue that black beauty pageants serve a purpose by providing a forum to specifically celebrate black standards of beauty, which would otherwise be drowned out by the majority caucasian standard. What would be the justification for a white’s only pageant, given that pageants in general already default to the white standard of beauty? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-racist-to-call/501994/19 "2009-07-06T04:15:48Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I think the first thing that needs to be asked when someone suggests that an organization be restricted by race is, “Is there a good reason to restrict this to a particular race?” > > Well, it’s fairly well documented that there’s a strong tendency in our culture to devalue black standards of beauty. IIRC, one of the major points of evidence offered up in _Brown v. the Board of Education_ was a study that showed that black girls, when presented with two dolls of different races, that were otherwise identical, and then asked to pick which one was the prettier one, would almost invariably pick the white doll. I think this is a good point. I saw a Tyra Banks TV show segment where she criticizes a woman for getting eyelid surgery to look more Caucasian and denying it, but then went on to justify her own wearing of weaves (to have straight hair/look white, but that was okay because she was admitting to it–I don’t even get it myself). I think the point is that things that are traditionally black aren’t seen as sexy. Afros aren’t as sexy as straight hair and so on. I can definitely see why non-whites would want their own beauty pageants. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-racist-to-call/501994/20 "2009-07-06T06:04:14Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Yes, it is. > > [Miss America - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miss_America) [Rule number 7 was amended in 1945](http://www.top-term-paper-sites.com/term-papers/fashion-term-paper.html) > [@](#): > > This by-law was amended in 1945, when the first Jewish contestant Ms. Bess Myerson participated and became the first and thus far only Jewish Miss America. Although the “white only” ruling was no longer official, pageant organizers managed to exclude Blacks and other “undesirable” minorities from the competition for another twenty-five years (Banet-Weiser, 1999). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-be-racist-to-call/501994.md?page=2)