# Would it bother you if evil people made it into heaven? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 17, 2019, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-bother-you-if-evil-people-made-it-into-heaven/838775 "2019-08-17T00:54:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2019, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-bother-you-if-evil-people-made-it-into-heaven/838775/21 "2019-08-17T20:16:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Sounds like mind control to me. If I do not care about family, friends(or even total strangers) that are possibly suffering for all eternity, if the part of me that has empathy has been excised so that I will fit in, then I have been done harm. Sounds like someone is still mad, all these years later, that Mummsy and Pappa made him get out of bed and go to church. Did you pop in just to offer your august opinion on my response or were you going to actually answer the OP? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2019, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-bother-you-if-evil-people-made-it-into-heaven/838775/22 "2019-08-17T20:21:14Z")
\*\*Would it bother you if evil people made it into heaven? \*\* When Good Things Happen to Bad People. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2019, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-bother-you-if-evil-people-made-it-into-heaven/838775/23 "2019-08-17T20:33:16Z")
> [@breezman](#): > > That’s pretty much what I believe, though I don’t think that there will be the walking around a physical place and seeing other people and stuff. The best way I can describe it is that it’ll be entirely spiritual. If heaven is real I don’t think it would have much connection to current physical reality either, but I thought it would be the most straightforward way to describe things. > [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Right. Makes no great difference to me, if they no longer have the capability of evil (I’m assuming that’s part of the deal). > [@AHunter3](#): > > I assume you mean that they are no longer evil now (in heaven). I’m fine with them being there, and I’m fine with the notion that the only way to make things heavenly in real life involves not blaming any culprits for the existing nonheavenly state of affairs. I’m all for justice when it means ending unjust situations but considerably less so when justice means getting even. Well they still have free will _(yes, I know)_ so they can still choose to do evil actions if they want, but they’ll get sent to the naughty corner if they persist. I’m not sure how much evil you could do in paradise apart from being a jerk though. Its really hard to write this scenario without positing involuntary mind rewiring to make people behave. > [@Baker](#): > > Heaven is the place where believers in God are forever in His presence.(Hell is the opposite) One gets to Heaven by believing that Jesus Christ died for us, to redeem us from our sinful nature. > > So an “evil person” could be saved at the last moment of their life, by accepting what I’ve stated above. It might surprise me\*\*\*\*\*, but I’d be pleased, and I hope I’d realize that if they had come to that belief and NOT died, they wouldn’t be evil anymore. > > \*\*\*\*\*\* One night I dreamed death came for me. > Heaven’s gates opened wide. > With Kindly grace an angel came > And ushered me inside. > And there to my astonishment > Stood folks I’d known on Earth. > Some I’d judged not good enough > Unfit, of little worh. > Indignant words rose to my lips > But never were set free. > For every face showed stunned surprise. > No one expected me!\* Well other cultures have their idea of heaven/paradise. I’m a Catholic myself but in the scenario in the OP everyone gets in regardless of beliefs or actions in their mortal life. Its really just a maguffin to see how people would feel about sharing paradise with those they consider shouldn’t be there. That’s a really nice poem btw! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2019, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-bother-you-if-evil-people-made-it-into-heaven/838775/24 "2019-08-17T23:12:32Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > \*\*Would it bother you if evil people made it into heaven? > \*\* > When Good Things Happen to Bad People. It would bother me that some were allowed in and others weren’t because: 1. One “bad” person might have a chance to repent before dying, while the next could be thinking about the subject but gets a bullet in the back of the head before she/he gets a chance to do anything about it. 2. When it comes to getting into heaven, what is definitively “good”, and what is definitively “bad”? A “bad” person could be someone that thought the rules were being followed, but doesn’t make the cut because the wrong food was eaten, the wrong thoughts were thought…or the wrong people were loved. As far as the scenario in the OP is concerned, I have no problems with it as written. ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2019, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-bother-you-if-evil-people-made-it-into-heaven/838775/25 "2019-08-18T01:22:57Z")
If someone hated people from a certain group during their life on earth, would existing with them in the afterlife make it more like hell (unless they saw the error of their ways?) I always thought it would be interesting if there was one place where everyone went, but those who had hate in their heart would find it excruciating to see members of the groups they hated there. That said, I’m an agnostic on the existence of an afterlife. ---
**Author:** ![pmwgreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@pmwgreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pmwgreen)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-bother-you-if-evil-people-made-it-into-heaven/838775/26 "2019-08-19T05:05:09Z")
1 Cor 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. IOW, I have no idea what I will think in heaven. If it exists. Which I really doubt. In fact, I will know all the lottery numbers now and in the future, but I will not be able to tell anyone. Are you sure it’s not hell? Anyway, the theme of “God. Go figure.” is a recurring theme in the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-bother-you-if-evil-people-made-it-into-heaven/838775/27 "2019-08-19T06:17:22Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Sounds like mind control to me. If I do not care about family, friends(or even total strangers) that are possibly suffering for all eternity, if the part of me that has empathy has been excised so that I will fit in, then I have been done harm. It’s always struck me that this is the aspect (on a larger scale) that makes the whole concept of individual humans “going to heaven” irrelevant. In order to have the capacity to enjoy eternal bliss, in whatever form, I’d need to be so fundamentally altered from my highly limited and imperfect mortal state that it would become rather meaningless to say that that individual in heaven is “me” in any recognizable way. Saying that a human can dwell forever in heaven after completing their minuscule period of human life is a bit like saying that a rabbit can survive 1-2 years in the wild but 50-60 years as part of a fur coat. From the rabbit’s point of view, those two phases of its existence are separated by such drastic alteration that they really don’t relate in any meaningful way. Same for me when it comes to turning from a living human being into some kind of immortal perfected spirit creature. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-bother-you-if-evil-people-made-it-into-heaven/838775/28 "2019-08-19T06:28:24Z")
OK, so the OP postulates Purgatory plus Heaven. I can accept when the evil people I know manage to be decent human beings (even if sometimes it’s in a “broken clock” kind of way)… the idea of some of them actually managing to learn how to permanently-be decent human beings is hilarious, but hey, they’ve got an eternity to learn it so why not. Ultimate Judgment is the job of the Ultimate Judge: I try to avoid telling God how to do His job. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Sounds like mind control to me. If I do not care about family, friends(or even total strangers) that are possibly suffering for all eternity, if the part of me that has empathy has been excised so that I will fit in, then I have been done harm. So you’re completely incapable of enjoying a party if someone you know has had to miss it because he’s sick? There is a difference between “being worried about someone” and “being incapable of joy”. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-bother-you-if-evil-people-made-it-into-heaven/838775/29 "2019-08-19T06:37:42Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > It’s always struck me that this is the aspect (on a larger scale) that makes the whole concept of individual humans “going to heaven” irrelevant. In order to have the capacity to enjoy eternal bliss, in whatever form, I’d need to be so fundamentally altered from my highly limited and imperfect mortal state that it would become rather meaningless to say that that individual in heaven is “me” in any recognizable way. I have been fundamentally altered throughout my entire life. I was far more limited when I was a toddler than I am now, yet both are still me. Regardless of how it appears on the outside, my conscious experience is that those were all me. I see no reason this would change no matter how much I was altered. This is true whether I go to heaven, and experience eternal bliss, or I wind up augmenting my human body with cyberpunk technology. I’m all about the continuity of consciousness. If you have it, no matter what else is true, you experience being the same person. And this is fundamentally true, yet cannot be measured. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-bother-you-if-evil-people-made-it-into-heaven/838775/30 "2019-08-19T10:45:52Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > So you’re completely incapable of enjoying a party if someone you know has had to miss it because he’s sick? There is a difference between “being worried about someone” and “being incapable of joy”. I would be incapable of enjoying a party if once I got there I was told would never see or have contact with an untold number of family and friends again. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-bother-you-if-evil-people-made-it-into-heaven/838775/31 "2019-08-19T11:06:51Z")
> [@Atomic\_Alex](#): > > Your guide explains that God is merciful and benign, the afterlife isn’t a place of punishment and everyone makes it to heaven. From my Catholic perspective, universal salvation cannot be ruled out. It is certainly to be hoped for. Mystics (for example, Julian of Norwich in the fourteenth century) and theologians (Karl Rahner in the twentieth century) have expressed a belief in universal salvation. I, personally, share this belief. At the very least, the only souls not saved are those that knowingly and consciously refuse salvation. This might apply to Lucifer and other fallen angels – you know, “better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven.” But I don’t believe it can apply to any human. So, no, it wouldn’t bother me that those who are “undeserving” make it to paradise. It would only confirm my belief in God’s infinite love for His creation. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-bother-you-if-evil-people-made-it-into-heaven/838775/32 "2019-08-19T13:38:30Z")
That’s one of my biggest objections to Christian doctrine. You’re telling me that Jeffrey Dahmer is in heaven if he accepted Jesus five seconds before he was murderer, but an atheist who did nothing worse than taking home a pen from work. is in hell? Get real, people. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-bother-you-if-evil-people-made-it-into-heaven/838775/33 "2019-08-19T13:50:45Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > By definition, Heaven is a place of perfect happiness. If you are there, the presence or absence of others will not mar your eternal joy. Yeah, if I was bothered by an evil person being in heaven, that would definitionally mean it wasn’t heaven. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-bother-you-if-evil-people-made-it-into-heaven/838775/34 "2019-08-19T20:01:44Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > That’s one of my biggest objections to Christian doctrine. You’re telling me that Jeffrey Dahmer is in heaven if he accepted Jesus five seconds before he was murderer, but an atheist who did nothing worse than taking home a pen from work. is in hell? > > Get real, people. Well, speaking as a Christian, I’m telling you that I believe Jeffrey Dahmer is in heaven whether or not he “accepted Jesus” (whatever that means), along with the atheist pen-stealer. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-bother-you-if-evil-people-made-it-into-heaven/838775/35 "2019-08-19T20:38:59Z")
As a universalist Christian, no, it wouldn’t bother me. I’d be bothered if it wasn’t the case. ---
**Author:** ![Hermitian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hermitian/32/470_2.png) [@Hermitian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermitian)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-bother-you-if-evil-people-made-it-into-heaven/838775/36 "2019-08-19T20:45:05Z")
As a Christian, I believe: Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. I am just as guilty of “being evil” as anyone else on earth. I don’t believe the extent of the evilness determines if one goes to Heaven. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-bother-you-if-evil-people-made-it-into-heaven/838775/37 "2019-08-19T21:48:48Z")
> [@Atomic\_Alex](#): > > Well they still have free will _(yes, I know)_ so they can still choose to do evil actions if they want, but they’ll get sent to the naughty corner if they persist. I’m not sure how much evil you could do in paradise apart from being a jerk though. Its really hard to write this scenario without positing involuntary mind rewiring to make people behave. I have extreme confidence in the ability of evil people to do evil, which means that my experience in heaven would have to include solidly locking doors so I could keep evil people (and innocent children) from wandering in and messing with me and my stuff - sure the baddie will be removed for a while afterward, but the damage will already have been done. And of course if I can lock my door then I’m really creating my own exclusionary heaven, all by myself. What, you’re saying that in heaven I don’t get to have stuff of my own? That’s hell! Of course the other way (the _only_ other way) to prevent evil from doing evil to me would be to do a little involuntary mind rewiring to make it so I don’t mind insults, beatings, robbery, vandalism, imprisonment, or being cut off in traffic. And if you do do mind rewiring then I never get to go to heaven at all; instead there’ll just be some other dude in there stealing my identity. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-bother-you-if-evil-people-made-it-into-heaven/838775/38 "2019-08-19T21:54:36Z")
Eventually, God will be left with a Heaven full of very, very dull people. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-bother-you-if-evil-people-made-it-into-heaven/838775/39 "2019-08-19T22:02:28Z")
> [@Atomic\_Alex](#): > > So, would it bother you that those who are in your opinion undeserving make it to paradise, sinners just as much as saints? That everyone gets the same reward? So, fundamentally you are proposing a Heaven where one can be in a bothered state? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-bother-you-if-evil-people-made-it-into-heaven/838775/40 "2019-08-19T22:19:12Z")
> [@Icarus](#): > > So, fundamentally you are proposing a Heaven where one can be in a bothered state? He seems to dislike the idea of mind rewiring or brainwashing, which pretty much forces us to be capable of being displeased in heaven because we’re capable of being displeased here. Besides making us into implacable automata incapable of varying emotions, the only other way to keep us always happy in heaven is to constantly surround us with pleasing stimuli (that we’re somehow never bored by). This is theoretically possible - but not if some irredeemable evil person comes and stands in the way of our sunlight. If others can screw with our environment the pleasantness of heaven can’t be assured. Though of course there’s always the third option, where heaven is less “guaranteed happiness forever” and more “_not_ guaranteed torture forever”. Given that heaven is often mentioned in the same breath as hell, I wouldn’t see that as an invalid definition of the term. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-bother-you-if-evil-people-made-it-into-heaven/838775.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-bother-you-if-evil-people-made-it-into-heaven/838775.md?page=3)