# Would it have been (morally) murder if a slave killed his master? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 17, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-been-morally-murder-if-a-slave-killed-his-master/564546 "2010-12-17T19:19:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2010, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-been-morally-murder-if-a-slave-killed-his-master/564546/41 "2010-12-18T05:11:57Z")
Well, something like 700,000 people were killed in freeing the slaves. So I guess it’s ok. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2010, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-been-morally-murder-if-a-slave-killed-his-master/564546/42 "2010-12-18T05:36:32Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I think motives always matter. If I hit you with my car because I’m drunk, that’s one thing. If I hot you with my car because I had a mild heart attack at the wheel, that’s another. I never understand how people are so quick to take intent out of these moral calculations. I stand by my answers. The point is that there is a scale. It’s different to kill someone that is enslaving you, or your children, than it is to kill someone that is enslaving Person X. Not that all three can’t be justified mind you. But the last one, not as easily. > > Onward. Are you sure about this? Let’s think about war for a minute. Soldiers fight not just for the sake of their families, but for their country. Their fellow citizens. If a bunch of Martians landed in the United States and started eating us one by one, are you saying it would be morally questionable for a soldier unrelated to you to shoot the Martian actively tearing you to bits, but that it would be absolutely moral for that soldier to save his sister from the same creature? Or let’s say you and I are taken hostage by two lunatics. Are you saying it would be moral for my father to bust in and kill the hostage taker holding the gun to my head, but that it wouldn’t be as righteous for him to kill _your_ hostage taker? (If so, we can just leave ya’ll be). Let’s go with another wacky example. All the Jews in the concentration camps were freed by people who were probably 99% not Jewish. Many Nazis were killed by these people. Would their deaths have been more justifiable if it had been Jews who had killed them rather than of non-Jews? I agree totally with **Der Trihs**. It’s actually more noble to save people who are unrelated to you than it is to save only those who are. And when that saving requires killing powerful people, then it just increases the bravery factor. Can you understand what we’re saying? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2010, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-been-morally-murder-if-a-slave-killed-his-master/564546/43 "2010-12-18T05:49:46Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It means that the killing in question is morally unjustified. > > Anyway, as I’ve said in the past I agree with the position that slavers are hostis humani generis, the enemies of mankind. And as such, there are little to no moral issues with killing them. I’d make a point of killing as many as I could if I was trying to escape. As far as I’m concerned if you lift a hand to defend slavery you are at war with the human race, and killing you is no more morally objectionable than shooting a member of an invading army. Suppose a slave has an opportunity to escape but to use it he has to kill some random white stranger. Is he justified? Suppose his opportunity to escape required him to kill another slave? Is he justified then? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2010, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-been-morally-murder-if-a-slave-killed-his-master/564546/44 "2010-12-18T06:36:11Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Suppose a slave has an opportunity to escape but to use it he has to kill some random white stranger. Is he justified? Suppose his opportunity to escape required him to kill another slave? Is he justified then? If it’s truly _necessary_ then yes. It’s collateral damage; the slave isn’t the person who set up the system that makes killing third parties necessary, the blame is on the people who did set it up. Especially since if it’s truly necessary to kill them, then the person in question is actively collaborating with the slavers. Killing collaborators is pretty much the norm. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2010, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-been-morally-murder-if-a-slave-killed-his-master/564546/45 "2010-12-18T06:51:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > OK. > > How about a prisoner on death row who stabs the guard holding him as they move towards the execution chamber. Murder? > > How about the same prisoner a year earlier, grabbing his one chance to get free? > > And – does it matter if the prisoner was actually innocent? > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Of course it matters. You aren’t trying to compare slaves with people who are actually guilty of something are you? > > If you insist on comparing it to an execution, a better analogy would be a Jew being herded into a gas chamber at Auschwitz. Would you think it wrong if he managed to kill a guard and escape? I dunno if anyone will agree with me, but I personally think that killing to defend your life is morally justifiable, even for a convicted and _and actually guilty_ murderer being taken to the death chamber for execution. Why should society expect anyone to go passively and without resistance to their own death? I’m going to have to give some thought to the idea of whether it is equally justifiable to kill on behalf of a convicted and _and actually guilty_ murderer being taken to the death chamber for execution. I’m thinking it’s not, but I can’t quite articulate why. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2010, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-been-morally-murder-if-a-slave-killed-his-master/564546/46 "2010-12-18T07:08:38Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I dunno if anyone will agree with me, but I personally think that killing to defend your life is morally justifiable, even for a convicted and _and actually guilty_ murderer being taken to the death chamber for execution. Why should society expect anyone to go passively and without resistance to their own death? I do not agree with you. The only moral thing such a murderer can do is turn himself in and walk peacefully to his death, or just kill himself to save us the trouble. He cannot murder more innocent people to avoid the just punishment for his initial murders. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2010, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-been-morally-murder-if-a-slave-killed-his-master/564546/47 "2010-12-18T07:22:17Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > If this belief had been widespread, there would have been no Underground Railroad, no slave rebellions, or former slaves who became vocal abolitionists like Frederick Douglass or Sojourner Truth. They were the minority, though, right? Most slaves didn’t escape or try to. > [@](#): > > But I’m still not seeing your point. Just because it might have been “normal” for a slave to accept his lot in life does not mean that their lot was just, or that it would have been wrong for them to rebel against it. I don’t entirely know what my point is. It’s just that we’re talking about a thing that’s existed across societies throughout most of human history, and still does today. There are more slaves today than there ever have been. And it just seems like people in this thread are sort of carelessly oversimplifying with absolute statements that killing a slaveholder is always justifiable. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2010, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-been-morally-murder-if-a-slave-killed-his-master/564546/48 "2010-12-18T07:25:16Z")
But that’s a question – is it murder if you’re defending your life? If you want, I could think up several scenarios which might make the initial murder legitimate in some people’s eyes. What if you killed the person who killed your wife or molested your child? Yet, for various reasons, you are still convicted and sentenced to death. Would that change anything? You’re still guilty of murder, you did actually kill the guy. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2010, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-been-morally-murder-if-a-slave-killed-his-master/564546/49 "2010-12-18T07:29:13Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > But that’s a question – is it murder if you’re defending your life? It is if the only reason your life is in danger is because of your own monstrous behaviour. An assassin is not justified in killing the bodyguard of the man he murdered, just because the bodyguard is fighting back. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2010, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-been-morally-murder-if-a-slave-killed-his-master/564546/50 "2010-12-18T07:37:53Z")
As for your aside, I do not feel that it is justifiable to kill someone who is doing a job they can rightfully claim is legitimate just because they get in your way. You would be justified in trying to escape, but not, IMO, at the expense of the life of an innocent person. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2010, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-been-morally-murder-if-a-slave-killed-his-master/564546/51 "2010-12-18T07:38:17Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > If it’s truly _necessary_ then yes. It’s collateral damage; the slave isn’t the person who set up the system that makes killing third parties necessary, the blame is on the people who did set it up. Especially since if it’s truly necessary to kill them, then the person in question is actively collaborating with the slavers. Killing collaborators is pretty much the norm. So you’re saying that one slave’s freedom is worth more than another slave’s life. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2010, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-been-morally-murder-if-a-slave-killed-his-master/564546/52 "2010-12-18T09:19:25Z")
This is really a no brainer. Like **Der Trihs** , I’d even go as far as to say that I think a slave has every right to kill **anything** that stands in their way to gaining freedom. It isn’t even a matter of dead person’s level of sainthood or whatever… If they, legitimately, pose a threat to a slave’s escape from slavery then they’re ‘fair game;’ be them man, woman or child. Sick situation, but that’s not the slave’s fault. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2010, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-been-morally-murder-if-a-slave-killed-his-master/564546/53 "2010-12-18T09:43:11Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Like **Der Trihs** , I’d even go as far as to say that I think a slave has every right to kill **anything** that stands in their way to gaining freedom. It isn’t even a matter of dead person’s level of sainthood or whatever… If they, legitimately, pose a threat to a slave’s escape from slavery then they’re ‘fair game;’ be them man, woman or child. > > Sick situation, but that’s not the slave’s fault. But if this was true, the _slave_ is standing in the way of _the innocent bystander_’s right to freedom, and he’s doing it on purpose. “Commander/Slaver X will kill/enslave me if I don’t!” is not a valid justification for killing Innocent Bystander Y. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2010, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-been-morally-murder-if-a-slave-killed-his-master/564546/54 "2010-12-18T09:55:40Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > But if this was true, the _slave_ is standing in the way of _the innocent bystander_’s right to freedom, and he’s doing it on purpose. “Commander/Slaver X will kill/enslave me if I don’t!” is not a valid justification for killing Innocent Bystander Y. If someone puts a gun to your head and says that if you don’t kill “person x” he will kill you; you are no longer responsible for your actions, the guy with the gun is. A slave is someone who has a gun to their head; they have every right to kill to insure their freedom. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2010, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-been-morally-murder-if-a-slave-killed-his-master/564546/55 "2010-12-18T10:12:25Z")
[Morpheus was a 21st century John Brown.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXQozTxQSiE) ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2010, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-been-morally-murder-if-a-slave-killed-his-master/564546/56 "2010-12-18T10:27:30Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > If someone puts a gun to your head and says that if you don’t kill “person x” he will kill you; you are no longer responsible for your actions, the guy with the gun is. In my view anyone who would do such a thing is not only evil but also an idiot. Not only are you murdering an innocent bystander for your own benefit, you are also trusting someone who has explicitly stated they’re willing to kill innocent people. There’s no sane reason to take him at his word that he won’t simply kill you, too. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2010, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-been-morally-murder-if-a-slave-killed-his-master/564546/57 "2010-12-18T10:56:07Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > In my view anyone who would do such a thing is not only evil but also an idiot. Not only are you murdering an innocent bystander for your own benefit, you are also trusting someone who has explicitly stated they’re willing to kill innocent people. There’s no sane reason to take him at his word that he won’t simply kill you, too. Jeez, it’s not a matter of trust or whatever; it’s a simple scenario: Through no fault of your own, you are under an immediate threat to your life. Thus, you are not responsible for reasonable actions taken to safeguard your life. There is no ‘run away’ choice or whatever. Someone has a gun to your head, you either obey him or not. Under such a scenario you are not responsible for his commands. A slave is in a similarly messed up scenario. They are under the threat of slavery (this even counts torture/death), they have every right to kill anything that stands in their way to gaining freedom. There is no ‘third’ option; it’s Slavery or Freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2010, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-been-morally-murder-if-a-slave-killed-his-master/564546/58 "2010-12-18T11:08:43Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Jeez, it’s not a matter of trust or whatever; Yes, it is: assuming you cannot escape, your survival is dependant on your captor’s choice to let you go. This is not the same thing as being dependant on your willingness to follow his commands. Once you are no longer of use to him (either because you won’t obey his commands or because you already did his dirty work for him), it’s entirely up to him whether he lets you go or kills you. > [@](#): > > it’s a simple scenario: Through no fault of your own, you are under an immediate threat to your life. Thus, you are not responsible for reasonable actions taken to safeguard your life. I agree, but murdering innocent people _isn’t_ a reasonable action to take to safeguard your own life. > [@](#): > > Under such a scenario you are not responsible for his commands. You _are_ responsible for your decision to _follow_ his commands. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2010, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-been-morally-murder-if-a-slave-killed-his-master/564546/59 "2010-12-18T11:30:44Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Yes, it is: assuming you cannot escape, your survival is dependant on your captor’s choice to let you go. This is not the same thing as being dependant on your willingness to follow his commands. Once you are no longer of use to him (either because you won’t obey his commands or because you already did his dirty work for him), it’s entirely up to him whether he lets you go or kills you. Yes, but all of that doesn’t matter. Right now he has a gun to your head and tells you that if you don’t obey him he will shoot you. Your final choices are still: Obey or not. > [@](#): > > I agree, but murdering innocent people _isn’t_ a reasonable action to take to safeguard your own life. Under such a situation, I’d say yes it is, and ‘innocent-ness’ doesn’t even come into the equation. > [@](#): > > You _are_ responsible for your decision to _follow_ his commands. Not if the other option is death/slavery. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2010, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-been-morally-murder-if-a-slave-killed-his-master/564546/60 "2010-12-18T11:40:12Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Right. Because 1) losing your “dream” job is a bajillion times different from losing your freedom, 2) losing your job does not put your life in danger, and 3) you have alternatives other than killing, like bringing a law suit against the company or the two individuals who you believe conspired against you. > > That’s why the OP qualified the question with “morally”. We all know that it would have been against the law for a slave to kill his or her slaveowner. That’s a moot point. The question is, would it be inherently wrong for a slave to kill his slaveowner. And the majority opinion in this thread is that it wouldn’t be wrong, since slavery is akin to holding someone by lethal force. > > Your post is so not in the same ballpark of what we’re talking about that I’m wondering if perhaps you’ve posted in the wrong thread. Losing that job cost me my financial freedom until I was able to find another job. Losing that job caused me to leave South Dakota, which I did not want to do-----jobs like the one I lost are non-existent in South Dakota except in one place. Losing that job did, in fact, put my life in danger as I became clinically depressed with suicidal ideation. Losing that job arguably resulted in ending a nineteen year marriage. But I shouldn’t have posted my bitterness in this thread or anywhere else, I’ll grant that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-been-morally-murder-if-a-slave-killed-his-master/564546.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-been-morally-murder-if-a-slave-killed-his-master/564546.md?page=4)