# Would it have killed you to actually call an Orthodox Rabbi? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 16, 2005, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-killed-you-to-actually-call-an-orthodox-rabbi/304015 "2005-05-16T03:01:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2005, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-killed-you-to-actually-call-an-orthodox-rabbi/304015/61 "2005-05-17T15:38:40Z")
> [@asrivkin](#): > > Hang on. I seem to remember learning about the Marranos (Jews in Spain who converted under the pressure of the Inquisition but secretly practiced Judaism anyhow) in Hebrew School back in the day. I don’t remember them being mentioned in a negative light, as I might expect if they broke one of the three biggies. Is Christianity/Islam different from idolatry in this case, or do more Orthodox histories see them as awful people? Christianity and Islam have the same rules (for the most part) as other religions WRT converting and worshipping in the face of death. WRT Islam, however, there is more (but not complete) lattitude. For example, one may be able to recite the Allahu Akhbar under pain of death because (a) the Muslim conception of God is identical to the Jewish conception of God and (b) it would then only involve making a false statement that Mohammed is a prophet - not something that one would have go give one’s life to avoid. The Conversos (Marranos, BTW, translates to “pigs”) were under great pressure in Spain. By seeming to adopt Christian worship and publicly participating in such (even if they were secretly keeping their own religion) was wrong. However, I personally cannot judge people who are put into terrible situations such as that - and, as such, all I can tell you was that their actions were wrong. I will not, however, due to the extreme situation, call them “awful people.” Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2005, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-killed-you-to-actually-call-an-orthodox-rabbi/304015/62 "2005-05-17T15:40:02Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > But not impossible to imagine from the male. Joseph and the wife of Potiphar. Granted he only ended up in prison, but if she could’ve got him killed, what doubt that she would? Then yes, if it comes down to sleeping with a married woman (who isn’t your wife, obviously) or death, then a Jew must choose death. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2005, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-killed-you-to-actually-call-an-orthodox-rabbi/304015/63 "2005-05-17T15:58:44Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > Well, of course, but my impression of these particular parents was that they were minimally observant – based, as I said, on just the first half of the show. Minimally observant does not equal ignorance, either. Even the most unobservant Reform Jew probably knows that kosher laws needn’t be strictly adhered to in a truly life-or-death situation. In my experience, that’s one of the first things that curious Gentiles ask upon finding out that they’re talking to a Real Live Jew who is willing to answer questions. And even the most unobservant Reform Jew would probably know that when dealing with difficult questions such as the one presented in the show, the only thing to do is get in contact with an Orthodox Rabbi. Whole lifetimes have been spent hashing out the tough questions. The Talmud is a wonderful tool. Even if the Talmud doesn’t specifically address heart-valve replacement, the Orthodox Rabbis would be able to extrapolate and come up with an answer. And even if the parents of the girl in question didn’t know to ask an Orthodox Rabbi, I’m surprised that none of the doctors or nurses or other people at the hospital didn’t think of it. Being non-Jewish doesn’t necessarily equal ignorance, either. If the scriptwriters couldn’t create a sufficiently dramatic episode which included a consultation with a Rabbi, then they should have ditched the storyline altogether. Spreading this kind of misinformation does matter. I don’t expect prime time TV shows to provide Jewish education to the masses, but they shouldn’t get this kind of stuff so egregiously wrong, either. There is an unbelievable level of ignorance about Judaism in the country, and it does not help to have people thinking that Jews are a bunch of whackadoos who would rather die than violate some seemingly arbitrary rule. We’d have died out a long time ago if we didn’t have some kind of “survival trumps kashruth” clause in our contract. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2005, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-killed-you-to-actually-call-an-orthodox-rabbi/304015/64 "2005-05-17T16:03:44Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Yes it would. The major gene is for “brown” or “not-brown”. Whether the “not-brown” shows up green, blue, yellow or purple (I’ve seen all of them) depends on other genes, which can be passed by any eye colored parent. > > The only time you can strongly suspect hanky-panky based on eye color is if two blue-eyed people have a brown-eyed child. With any other combination, any result is possible. Yup, that’s right. For the record, green eyes are blue eyes with yellow fat deposits on the iris, making them look green. In case you need to tease a sibling or something about their fat eyes. 😃 Okay, I’ll stop now, **zev**. Back to your originally scheduled thread. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2005, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-killed-you-to-actually-call-an-orthodox-rabbi/304015/65 "2005-05-17T19:30:47Z")
I’m proud to say that because of the SDMB and **zev** in particular, that as I watched that part of “Grey’s Anatomy” I thought, “I don’t think the porcine valve would violate anything as long as it was butchered correctly, etc.” It looks like I didn’t get the details quite right, but I am glad I wasn’t totally going along with the story line as \ gospel truth. I’m torn on the use of someone who has no chance of being pregnant saying that if they were it would be an “immaculate conception.” On the one hand, it’s incorrect dogmatically but on the other hand it’s a such a common mistake that using it does reflect reality. What do the writers mean to do? Hard to say. The other one is when a Catholic priest or nun (Brothers don’t seem to ever be shown) leaves their vocation, shown as still a practicing Catholic, but now is ready for hanky-panky. Hello, just because you’re no longer a religious doesn’t mean all moral guidelines are off. ---
**Author:** ![Cemetery\_Savior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Cemetery\_Savior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cemetery_Savior)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2005, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-killed-you-to-actually-call-an-orthodox-rabbi/304015/66 "2005-05-17T20:57:21Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Even a real hospital probably would have urged the patient to conult with her rabbi. > > You think this show got it wrong, you should see what _Revelations_ is doing to Catholicism. Oy vey. They have a nun reeling of “Left Behind” psychobabble like that has anything to do with Catholicism. She keeps talking about “signs and symbols of the endtimes” and the writers seem completely unaware that the RCC does not have any fucking "endtimes’ theology as such, they don’t believe in “signs and symbols” or a war beteween Jesus and the "antichrist or any of that bullshit. > > The show also pisses me off with it’s cardboard “skeptics” and straw , fundy “scientists” and the nun’s smug, patronizing tolerance of “doubt” (which, of course, can never be sincere non-belief but always has to be motivated by anger at God). > > I’m starting to ramble but I can’t believe that not a single person associated with that show bothered to find out anything about Catholic eschatological beliefs before writing such an insulting and wildly inaccurate caricature of a nun. They might as well have her praying to Mecca or burning Vedic sacrifices. That’s about how Catholic this character is. Not too hijack the thread, but I was on one of the test screenings for Revalations. I watched the network debut out of morbid curiousity, and believe it or not, the Eschatology was turned way down, compared to the test screening. The nun (at least in my screening) was disliked by almost all viewers, and she remained. Go figure. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2005, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-killed-you-to-actually-call-an-orthodox-rabbi/304015/67 "2005-05-17T21:27:20Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Yes it would. The major gene is for “brown” or “not-brown”. Whether the “not-brown” shows up green, blue, yellow or purple (I’ve seen all of them) depends on other genes, which can be passed by any eye colored parent. > > The only time you can strongly suspect hanky-panky based on eye color is if two blue-eyed people have a brown-eyed child. With any other combination, any result is possible. I made that one work in my head by thinking "House got a better view of those kids than we did, took one look at two or three of those kids (and having seen the husband up close, too), and being the cynical bastard he is thought “no way is that his.” He then threw a scientific-enough answer at the wife to make her realize that he was on to her. I also thought the Grey’s Anatomy story had more to do with teenage rebellion than actual Jewish practice. She was too over the top and too self righteous for too long. It reminded me of some kids who go ultra-fundamental in response to their parents’ laxer version of Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-killed-you-to-actually-call-an-orthodox-rabbi/304015/68 "2005-05-18T09:55:39Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. Sexual Immorality - you cannot sleep with someone to save your own life (unless, of course, that person is permitted to you ) Does this mean a woman has to choose death over submitting to a rapist who threatens her with death is she does not comply? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-killed-you-to-actually-call-an-orthodox-rabbi/304015/69 "2005-05-18T10:19:43Z")
> [@Icerigger](#): > > Does this mean a woman has to choose death over submitting to a rapist who threatens her with death is she does not comply? Briefly, if she was in a circumstance where she could scream for help she is meant to do so. But if she is in some place far from help then she has done nothing wrong. That’s OTTOMH from Leviticus or somewhere near. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-killed-you-to-actually-call-an-orthodox-rabbi/304015/70 "2005-05-18T11:15:06Z")
Forgive me but I still don’t understand. If a rapist holds a knife to her throat and says “if you scream I will kill you” she can’t save her life by keeping silent? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-killed-you-to-actually-call-an-orthodox-rabbi/304015/71 "2005-05-18T11:17:37Z")
> [@Green Bean](#): > > And even the most unobservant Reform Jew would probably know that when dealing with difficult questions such as the one presented in the show, the only thing to do is get in contact with an Orthodox Rabbi. How about ‘the most unobservant Reconstructionist Jew’? But, in any case, I somehow doubt that many Reform Jews would give it enough though to ask an Orthodox rabbi. When faced with a ‘difficult question’ such as that, I’d wager that most of us who were raised Reform would simply say “fuck it” and do what we thought was right. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-killed-you-to-actually-call-an-orthodox-rabbi/304015/72 "2005-05-18T11:22:18Z")
On closer reading ,I think I missed the point. Please disregard my comments. Nothing to see here. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-killed-you-to-actually-call-an-orthodox-rabbi/304015/73 "2005-05-18T11:34:24Z")
> [@Icerigger](#): > > Forgive me but I still don’t understand. If a rapist holds a knife to her throat and says “if you scream I will kill you” she can’t save her life by keeping silent? I’ll kick that one up to **zev** or **cmkeller** , as I expect the question has been as thoroughly discussed as the one about using pig organs in surgery; the answer I gave was just straight from the Old Testament. In which, btw, there seems to be a presumption that a woman accosted in a place far from help _would_ have screamed, but there was no-one to hear. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-killed-you-to-actually-call-an-orthodox-rabbi/304015/74 "2005-05-18T14:20:41Z")
From what I understand (and I must point out that I am not a Rabbi, so please consult with your local rabbi for a real halachic ruling), in **Icerigger** ’s first case (where someone says “sleep with me or I’ll kill you” one must allow oneself to be killed. His second case is not as clear – here the choice is between death or remaining silent. The fact that a rape may follow said silence may or may not be a differentiating factor. I simply don’t know. However, as **Malacandra** points out, if one is forced (i.e. she is not given the option of death) and has no other option then there is no sin (on the part of the woman). Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Nawth\_Chucka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nawth\_Chucka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nawth_Chucka)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-killed-you-to-actually-call-an-orthodox-rabbi/304015/75 "2005-05-18T21:20:48Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > The Reform and Conservative Movements have female rabbis. The Orthodox movement(s) do not. Good, female rabbis, excellent - maybe they can answer my burning Judaic question… If the spouse of a male rabbi is a rebbitzin, what does one call the spouse of a female rabbi? Besides Dave or whatever. Zev, chime in if’n you know as well. This one’s made me wonder for years. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-killed-you-to-actually-call-an-orthodox-rabbi/304015/76 "2005-05-18T21:22:27Z")
I can’t answer definitely but my guess would be that among Reform Jews, the spouse of a female Rabbi does not have any “title.” Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-killed-you-to-actually-call-an-orthodox-rabbi/304015/77 "2005-05-18T21:24:19Z")
> [@](#): > > From what I understand (and I must point out that I am not a Rabbi, so please consult with your local rabbi for a real halachic ruling), in Icerigger’s first case (where someone says “sleep with me or I’ll kill you” **one must allow oneself to be killed.** This is unbelievable, I have no words. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-killed-you-to-actually-call-an-orthodox-rabbi/304015/78 "2005-05-18T21:27:23Z")
> [@Icerigger](#): > > This is unbelievable, I have no words. You’re free to disbelieve. As I mentioned, in Judaism, in most cases, one can dispense with most of the laws to save one’s (or another’s) life. But when it comes to the Big Three (idolatry, murder and sexual immorality), then the laws are quite firm. You’re welcome to disagree - but that’s the _halacha_ (Jewish law). Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-killed-you-to-actually-call-an-orthodox-rabbi/304015/79 "2005-05-18T21:56:45Z")
Did anyone catch Law and Order last night? There was a mish-mash of Jewish stuff mixed in with an organ selling ring for blackmarket kidneys, but I digress. A woman who was killed was in love with an Orthodox Jew and she displayed that love by having his name _tatooed on her ankle_. There was all sorts of stuff that just didn’t feel right in that episode. Richard Belzer plays a Jewish detective, and his character is the authority on all things Jewish on the show. ---
**Author:** ![Nawth\_Chucka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nawth\_Chucka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nawth_Chucka)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-killed-you-to-actually-call-an-orthodox-rabbi/304015/80 "2005-05-18T21:59:24Z")
> [@zev\_steinhardt](#): > > I can’t answer definitely but my guess would be that among Reform Jews, the spouse of a female Rabbi does not have any “title.” > > Zev Steinhardt Is there any flavor of Judaism that titles the female rabbi’s male spouse? What do **they** call him? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-killed-you-to-actually-call-an-orthodox-rabbi/304015.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-have-killed-you-to-actually-call-an-orthodox-rabbi/304015.md?page=5)