# Would it really be that bad if America wasn't #1? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 13, 2011, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523 "2011-08-13T00:00:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/41 "2011-08-13T18:03:42Z")
I think that life will improve,once we stop being “World Cop”. In the first place, it is tremendously expensive. Second, we often wind up being the “bad guy” (see Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea, Vietnam). Finally, it absorbs lots of lives (like those 31 guys killed in Afghanistan). I’d LOVE to see the USA act in its citizen’s interests for a change. And , while a feel bad for Somalia, sending in soldiers to try to pacify these savages doesn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/42 "2011-08-13T18:07:23Z")
> [@nudgenudge](#): > > I actually think that the US’s position as sole superpower is safe for some decades yet, and the threat is not from China per se. The fact is that the USA is the most benign and democratic superpower the world has ever had. Yes, I realise that the US empire has done very bad things and abused its power, but compared to the Mongols or the Soviet Union it’s like a friendly uncle. And the dominant empire that came before it, the British empire, wasn’t that bad by historical standards either (pausing to acknowledge that, yes, the British did Very Bad Things too). The general historical trend appears to be away from oppressive empires run by lunatics, towards more cooperative groups of states in which some merely have more say than others. There are people in North Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Iraq ,Afghanistan and Pakistan that would take exception with thta. There are some assassinated dictators and overthrown elected governments like Iran that would seem to disagree. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/43 "2011-08-13T18:11:52Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/06/business/worldbusiness/06wealth.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/06/business/worldbusiness/06wealth.html) > We are only number b2 in income disparity but we are on the path to number 1. We can rejoice in that. While the focus here is the economy, the presumption within the U.S. is usually that the U.S. is in fact unequivocally number one in everything, but, as Harry Shearer notes in a regular feature of his show about this: “The list of things in which America is not number one is startlingly long.” South Korea has better broadband, and Cuba has a lower infant mortality rate. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/44 "2011-08-13T19:12:55Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I wouldn’t mind taking a break. But to me the question is not where I want America to stand in the rankings. It’s what country do I want to be number one. > > I’d have no problem with a world where the United Kingdom or New Zealand or the Netherlands was the world superpower. But none of them are likely to replace the United States in first place. Good point. Let’s start rooting for Canada. Go, Canada, go! You can _do_ this! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/45 "2011-08-13T19:16:49Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > There are people in North Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Iraq ,Afghanistan and Pakistan that would take exception with thta. There are some assassinated dictators and overthrown elected governments like Iran that would seem to disagree. North Korea’s a good example. The United States didn’t create the Kim regime - we’ve opposed it. Do you think the world would be a better place if the United States was replaced by the kind of country that thought putting somebody like Kim Il Sung in power was a good idea? Do you honestly believe George W. Bush is the moral equivalent of Hitler or Stalin or Mao or Khomeini? I’ll never claim the United States is perfect. I’m just saying we’re better than any of the realistic alternatives. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/46 "2011-08-13T20:48:41Z")
But what’s to say a hypothetical China-as-world-leader would be interested in exporting its poor human rights record in the first place? Plenty of strong powers allow their weaker neighbors to run their domestic matters as they damn well please, why wouldn’t China? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/47 "2011-08-13T21:13:58Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > America doesn’t either. It just makes speeches about how noble its intentions are and does the exact opposite. No not really. We may be imperfect but we are less hypocritical then ssay the uSSR. > [@nudgenudge](#): > > I actually think that the US’s position as sole superpower is safe for some decades yet, and the threat is not from China per se. The fact is that the USA is the most benign and democratic superpower the world has ever had. Yes, I realise that the US empire has done very bad things and abused its power, but compared to the Mongols or the Soviet Union it’s like a friendly uncle. And the dominant empire that came before it, the British empire, wasn’t that bad by historical standards either (pausing to acknowledge that, yes, the British did Very Bad Things too). The general historical trend appears to be away from oppressive empires run by lunatics, towards more cooperative groups of states in which some merely have more say than others. Which is in a way how the US-NATO-EU-Western bloc works. [QUOTE] > [@Kobal2](#): > > Positive effect ? Meh. Whether we’re talking Hollywood or foreign policy, the main cultural exports of the US are “might makes right” and “money is the end all, be all of existence”. Oh, and the extreme usefulness and versatility of the word “fuck”. I mean, say what you want about Communism as a political system in practice, but at least as an idea it has heart. Accumulating more shit than the neighbour, looking out for number 1 and fuck everyone else ? Not so much. You mean the same Communism that killed tens of millions in the USSR, China, Cambodia, and elswehere. And our idea is that by making money everyone is better off which has worked throughout the world. > [@](#): > > I have no idea what an Indian cultural hegemony would be like, and I’m not saying it would be any better, but it can’t be much worse either. There’d be more spontaneous dancing, for one thing 😛 Supstition, Fabian socialism, and a religiously enforced caste system combined with an anti-modern, anti-science outlook would rule the day unless India is more Westernized in the next few decades. > [@Kobal2](#): > > No offense man, but you’ve got things backwards. You know why China has such a poor human rights record ? > Well, in large part because it’s a bloody police state to begin with, I’ll give you that. But also because the West, not just the US mind you but every Western nation over the last 20 or so years, has treated China like a damn piggy bank. We’ve been all too happy to make a ton of money building that country up, and even more money buying stuff from them once it was built up. All the while not really wanting to know what they were doing with the money or how they managed to get their prices so low. Sweatshops ? We liked them so much we’ve got some for ourselves now. > Far from spreading human rights, we’ve been enabling the police state. We’ve been taking advantage of poverty, and slave wages, and horrible working conditions. We’ve been working hard to maintain them too, cause they’re our profit margins and our low-price guarantees. We’ve done that all over the place. > > So don’t talk to me about spreading human rights. We don’t care about that any more than the Chinese do those of North Korea. Our insatiable desire to get high alone sets half of the world ablaze, and our gas guzzling does the other half. We’re really, really in no position to be giving ethics lessons to anyone. > [@gonzomax](#): > > America first in what? World health ratings we are 37th. Internet speed, 12th. Life expectancy 31st. > We are number one in jailed citizens though. I am sure we have the most millionaires and billionaires. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/48 "2011-08-13T21:21:29Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > America first in what? World health ratings we are 37th. Internet speed, 12th. Life expectancy 31st. > We are number one in jailed citizens though. I am sure we have the most millionaires and billionaires. The world’s largest economy. The world’s strongest military. A leader in technology in several areas including space. Of course we do get dragged down in many areas and it is caused by massive numbers of illegals and a high black illegitimacy rate. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/49 "2011-08-13T21:29:31Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > While the focus here is the economy, the presumption within the U.S. is usually that the U.S. is in fact unequivocally number one in everything, but, as Harry Shearer notes in a regular feature of his show about this: “The list of things in which America is not number one is startlingly long.” South Korea has better broadband, and Cuba has a lower infant mortality rate. In technological things, the case is that the US frequently has lesser networks or internet speed or highways, or what have you, for the simple reason of having done it first, and in many cases decades before anyone else. Installed base is very important, and it’s easy to look at some third world dump and say “But they have a full nationwide 4G network!” without noting that it was set up last year, and is the first phone network that they’ve ever had, vs. the US’s hundred-odd years of telephone use, and 30 or so years of cell phone use. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/50 "2011-08-13T21:30:51Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Supstition, Fabian socialism, and a religiously enforced caste system combined with an anti-modern, anti-science outlook would rule the day unless India is more Westernized in the next few decades. Don’t mean to pick a fight here, but could you provide a cite on India being anti-science? It’s the first thing I ever hear about it, and it sure piqued my curiosity. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/51 "2011-08-13T21:59:51Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > No offense man, but you’ve got things backwards. You know why China has such a poor human rights record ? > Well, in large part because it’s a bloody police state to begin with, I’ll give you that. But also because the West, not just the US mind you but every Western nation over the last 20 or so years, has treated China like a damn piggy bank. We’ve been all too happy to make a ton of money building that country up, and even more money buying stuff from them once it was built up. All the while not really wanting to know what they were doing with the money or how they managed to get their prices so low. Sweatshops ? We liked them so much we’ve got some for ourselves now. > Far from spreading human rights, we’ve been enabling the police state. We’ve been taking advantage of poverty, and slave wages, and horrible working conditions. We’ve been working hard to maintain them too, cause they’re our profit margins and our low-price guarantees. We’ve done that all over the place. > > So don’t talk to me about spreading human rights. We don’t care about that any more than the Chinese do those of North Korea. Our insatiable desire to get high alone sets half of the world ablaze, and our gas guzzling does the other half. We’re really, really in no position to be giving ethics lessons to anyone. From what I know of them, China has a lot of domestic unrest about its environmental abuses, labor abuses and political/civil rights abuses. So things are changing there. And with concepts like the Kuznet curve the fact that China is experiencing so much economic growth is why they are having a pushback against abuses. As countries become wealthier and more educated, the citizens become more demanding and organized. China is no different. So to claim China has been exploited by all the international trade isn’t true. There are problems but they are growing an educated, reasonably well off middle class that is more able to stand up for itself than the peasant class. The US has supported tons of dictators. But in the last 20 years or so, after the cold war ended, we seem to give more credit to concepts like human rights. Making human rights and democracy a part of foreign policy didn’t even start until Jimmy Carter, and even then it was imperfect. So I never claimed the US was perfect since day one. But the world is better off if the premier superpower is one that opposes nations like Syria, Myanmar, North Korea, Sudan, etc. instead of one that trades with them. Then again the US trades with human rights abusers like Vietnam, Iraq and China. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/52 "2011-08-13T22:38:51Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Don’t mean to pick a fight here, but could you provide a cite on India being anti-science? It’s the first thing I ever hear about it, and it sure piqued my curiosity. Oh, I’ll pick the fight: he really has no idea what India is like today. Calling India anti-science is like calling Wall Street anti-business. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/53 "2011-08-13T22:40:34Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > North Korea’s a good example. The United States didn’t create the Kim regime - we’ve opposed it. > > Do you think the world would be a better place if the United States was replaced by the kind of country that thought putting somebody like Kim Il Sung in power was a good idea? Do you honestly believe George W. Bush is the moral equivalent of Hitler or Stalin or Mao or Khomeini? > > I’ll never claim the United States is perfect. I’m just saying we’re better than any of the realistic alternatives. We are not. We just keep saying it until easily convinced people believe it. We have been involved in other countries illegally or at war since 1900. [A List of American Wars - Quantum Future Group](http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/uswars.htm) Here is a short list. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/54 "2011-08-13T22:55:11Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > North Korea’s a good example. The United States didn’t create the Kim regime - we’ve opposed it. > > Do you think the world would be a better place if the United States was replaced by the kind of country that thought putting somebody like Kim Il Sung in power was a good idea? We are that sort of country. We’ve cheerfully supported monsters all across the world. We only oppose him because he’s a _Communist_ monster. If he was a fascist tyrant instead and was providing us with, say, oil or military basing rights we’d support him. We’d have people under “extraordinary rendition” right now in his prisons being tortured, most likely. > [@Hyperelastic](#): > > Living up to a philosophical ideal of fairness and being the best of a number of imperfect alternatives are two different things. I’ll take the latter if I can’t get the former. We aren’t just not living up to our ideals; outside our own borders we’ve virtually always actually worked against them. And I see no evidence that we are better any of the likely alternatives would be. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > No not really. We may be imperfect but we are less hypocritical then ssay the uSSR. No, outside our own borders we are no better than they were. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > You mean the same Communism that killed tens of millions in the USSR, China, Cambodia, and elswehere. And our idea is that by making money everyone is better off which has worked throughout the world. Oh, please, we’ve cheerfully slaughtered and raped and tortured our way across the world for profit. Go tell someone imprisoned by an American backed dictator being raped and tortured by American trained torturers how much better off she is than if she was being rapes tortured by a Soviet backed dictatorship. Being raped for God and the almighty Free Market is ever so much better! > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Of course we do get dragged down in many areas and it is caused by massive numbers of illegals and a high black illegitimacy rate. Ah, it’s the brown people’s fault. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/55 "2011-08-13T22:58:59Z")
[U.S. Interventions - 1945 to the Present William Blum](http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/US_Interventions_WBlumZ.html) Here is a list on interventions since 1945. There are plenty of countries who have grounds to hate us. We have propped up terrible dictators and overthrown some governments that treated their country men well in order to install a one that is friendlier to our corporations. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/56 "2011-08-13T23:12:09Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > Living up to a philosophical ideal of fairness and being the best of a number of imperfect alternatives are two different things. I’ll take the latter if I can’t get the former. “The best” according to what metric? We certainly aren’t the happiest, nor do we have the best social safety net, vacation policies or exchange rate (at the moment). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/57 "2011-08-13T23:24:13Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > North Korea’s a good example. The United States didn’t create the Kim regime - we’ve opposed it. > > Do you think the world would be a better place if the United States was replaced by the kind of country that thought putting somebody like Kim Il Sung in power was a good idea? Do you honestly believe George W. Bush is the moral equivalent of Hitler or Stalin or Mao or Khomeini? > > I’ll never claim the United States is perfect. I’m just saying we’re better than any of the realistic alternatives. > [@gonzomax](#): > > We are not. We just keep saying it until easily convinced people believe it. We have been involved in other countries illegally or at war since 1900. > [A List of American Wars - Quantum Future Group](http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/uswars.htm) Here is a short list. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > We are that sort of country. We’ve cheerfully supported monsters all across the world. We only oppose him because he’s a _Communist_ monster. If he was a fascist tyrant instead and was providing us with, say, oil or military basing rights we’d support him. We’d have people under “extraordinary rendition” right now in his prisons being tortured, most likely. > > We aren’t just not living up to our ideals; outside our own borders we’ve virtually always actually worked against them. And I see no evidence that we are better any of the likely alternatives would be. > > No, outside our own borders we are no better than they were. I want to make sure I’m not misunderstanding what you guys are saying. You are both saying that there is no substantial difference between the United States under Bush or any other bad American President and the various countries led by Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Khomeini. That we are all basically equal in terms of morality. Is that your view? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/58 "2011-08-13T23:27:18Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > But what’s to say a hypothetical China-as-world-leader would be interested in exporting its poor human rights record in the first place? Plenty of strong powers allow their weaker neighbors to run their domestic matters as they damn well please, why wouldn’t China? Can you give examples of the strong powers that haven’t interfered in the domestic affairs of their weaker neighbours? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/59 "2011-08-13T23:32:50Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I want to make sure I’m not misunderstanding what you guys are saying. You are both saying that there is no substantial difference between the United States under Bush or any other bad American President and the various countries led by Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Khomeini. That we are all basically equal in terms of morality. Is that your view? Again, as I’ve said repeatedly; I am speaking only of foreign policy. Nor did I say “bad Presidents”, I said America. And as for that; Hitler was more concerned with direct conquest & genocide than we have been recently. That’s about it. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/60 "2011-08-13T23:50:06Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Can you give examples of the strong powers that haven’t interfered in the domestic affairs of their weaker neighbours? Us and Canada. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523.md?page=4)