# Would it really be that bad if America wasn't #1? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 13, 2011, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523 "2011-08-13T00:00:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/61 "2011-08-14T00:12:28Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Us and Canada. Actually America has interfered with Mexico quite a bit, generally destructively. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/62 "2011-08-14T00:15:06Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Us and Canada. Maybe not Canada. But as Der Trihs posted, we’ve certainly interfered in the domestic politics of Mexico. And in the Caribbean and South America. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/63 "2011-08-14T01:33:55Z")
Who said Mexico? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/64 "2011-08-14T02:37:09Z")
I don’t really care if America’s #1. Sure, its a nice title to have, but like Miss USA, its just an honorary title. What matters more is what we do with it. Given our increasingly insane political fringes on the conservative side, I’d rather other countries take the lead in the world for a few decades ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/65 "2011-08-14T02:42:54Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Who said Mexico? I did. Der Trihs did. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/66 "2011-08-14T03:18:31Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Don’t mean to pick a fight here, but could you provide a cite on India being anti-science? It’s the first thing I ever hear about it, and it sure piqued my curiosity. Well for example Nehru was so horrified by the atomic bomb that he strongly opposed the harnessing of nuclear power itself (in Nixon’s autobiography), of > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > We are that sort of country. We’ve cheerfully supported monsters all across the world. We only oppose him because he’s a _Communist_ monster. If he was a fascist tyrant instead and was providing us with, say, oil or military basing rights we’d support him. We’d have people under “extraordinary rendition” right now in his prisons being tortured, most likely. That’s because they’re authoritarian not totalitarian. For example most authoritarian dictatorships made successful transitions to democracy (much of Latin America, South Korea, Taiwan, etc.) and is less controlling, intrusive, and blood-thirsty as totalitarian regimes. > [@](#): > > Oh, please, we’ve cheerfully slaughtered and raped and tortured our way across the world for profit. Go tell someone imprisoned by an American backed dictator being raped and tortured by American trained torturers how much better off she is than if she was being rapes tortured by a Soviet backed dictatorship. Being raped for God and the almighty Free Market is ever so much better! One can simply compare conditions between North and South Korea. > [@](#): > > Ah, it’s the brown people’s fault. :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] No. I find it amusing that people always blame rapacious capitalists or religious fundamentalists for why say America might be behind other countries in say education or life span but never the fact that compared to Japan, Korea, or Northern Europe we are not culturally homogenous, suffer large amounts of illegals, and have a large segment of the population for whom illegitimacy is the norm. On a more positive note we are thanks to the continued immigration from Asia and Latin America demographically more dynamic than the aging and declining populations in most of Europe and East Asia. In addition life spans are for instance clustered so similarly (ie 77.3, 77.4 etc.) that there is no real difference between several countries. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/67 "2011-08-14T03:19:57Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > The world’s largest economy. The world’s strongest military. A leader in technology in several areas including space. > > Of course we do get dragged down in many areas and it is caused by massive numbers of illegals and a high black illegitimacy rate. We get dragged down by our elimination of competition. There is no reason to improve products if you just buy up the competition until the few left just split up areas. That is why our communications lag. Our space dominance is over. The Repubs have gutted our science programs because they want that money in their pockets. You are a kid and have never seen competition. Back when I was young we had price wars. When you filed up a car, they gave you cups glasses, green stamps or some gift. They fought for your business. Now it is all the same,. The America you righties want to return to was killed by the rich and powerful. Your dislike of the poor and powerless will not serve you if you seek justice. Leave the fenced unfinished. The illegals have stopped coming. There are no jobs here any more and many are going home. Yep. We have the strongest military. Then why we can not defeat backward countries without a navy or air planes? We spend more on the military than the rest of the world. combined. Is that the way you want us to be? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/68 "2011-08-14T03:26:32Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > We get dragged down by our elimination of competition. There is no reason to improve products if you just buy up the competition until the few left just split up areas. That is why our communications lag. No that’s when the US buys from say Samsung or Sony. There is still competition and it has forced American companies to change or die. > [@](#): > > Our space dominance is over. The Repubs have gutted our science programs because they want that money in their pockets. It was Barack Obama who abandoned manned space programs and it was Bush who vowed to send men to Mars. > [@](#): > > You are a kid and have never seen competition. Back when I was young we had price wars. When you filed up a car, they gave you cups glasses, green stamps or some gift. They fought for your business. Now it is all the same,. The America you righties want to return to was killed by the rich and powerful. Your dislike of the poor and powerless will not serve you if you seek justice. I do not dislike the poor or the powerless. > [@](#): > > Leave the fenced unfinished. The illegals have stopped coming. There are no jobs here any more and many are going home. It hasn’t declined particularly a lot considering the economy. > [@](#): > > Yep. We have the strongest military. Then why we can not defeat backward countries without a navy or air planes? We spend more on the military than the rest of the world. combined. Is that the way you want us to be? Until at the least China democratizes the US must maintain its military ascendancy. And the reason why the US had a hard time in Afghanistan and Iraq (although we definately have won in the latter) is that we were fighting a limited war based on nation-building goals not destroy them. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/69 "2011-08-14T04:02:35Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > That’s because they’re authoritarian not totalitarian. For example most authoritarian dictatorships made successful transitions to democracy (much of Latin America, South Korea, Taiwan, etc.) and is less controlling, intrusive, and blood-thirsty as totalitarian regimes. Nonsense. The victims of “good” American backed authoritarianism were just as oppressed, tormented and dead as those of “evil” Soviet backed totalitarianism. It’s just a distinction we manufactured so we could pretend we were behaving in something other than a monstrously evil way. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Until at the least China democratizes the US must maintain its military ascendancy. And the reason why the US had a hard time in Afghanistan and Iraq (although we definately have won in the latter) is that we were fighting a limited war based on nation-building goals not destroy them. We never had any interest in “nation building”. And China’s democracy or lack thereof is militarily irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/70 "2011-08-14T04:32:49Z")
Did we get the victory in Vietnam, Korea ,Afghanistan Pakistan or even Iraq? Are those powerful first rate military powers? Iraq is in a holding pattern until we leave then it will go to hell in a hurry. Baghdad ,one of the most beautiful cities in the world was trashed by us. It was a terrible crime because they did nothing to us. People fight real hard to push foreign invaders away from their turf. I hope we can learn that lesson. It is asking a lot . ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/71 "2011-08-14T04:44:10Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > From what I know of them, China has a lot of domestic unrest about its environmental abuses, labor abuses and political/civil rights abuses. So things are changing there. And with concepts like the Kuznet curve the fact that China is experiencing so much economic growth is why they are having a pushback against abuses. As countries become wealthier and more educated, the citizens become more demanding and organized. China is no different. So to claim China has been exploited by all the international trade isn’t true. There are problems but they are growing an educated, reasonably well off middle class that is more able to stand up for itself than the peasant class. _shrug_ Whatever helps you sleep at night, man. Me, I only know that if I kick you down the gutter and you find 10 bucks there, I don’t claim credit for generosity. > [@](#): > > The US has supported tons of dictators. But in the last 20 years or so, after the cold war ended, we seem to give more credit to concepts like human rights. Making human rights and democracy a part of foreign policy didn’t even start until Jimmy Carter, and even then it was imperfect. So I never claimed the US was perfect since day one. > > But the world is better off if the premier superpower is one that opposes nations like Syria, Myanmar, North Korea, Sudan, etc. instead of one that trades with them. Then again the US trades with human rights abusers like Vietnam, Iraq and China. Precisely. We don’t trade with North Korea because they don’t have anything we want. They don’t build shit, and there’s nothing to invest in either because the junta is just too stupid and corrupt to ever try building anything. Besides, as DT says, the Kims are batting for the wrong team. But if there’s a buck to be made ? We’re on that like stink on rice. There will never be a shortage of people in classy suits ready to overlook a little thing like torture camps or children labour, long as the check is in the mail. If it’s not the US, it’s one of their partners in [del]crime[/del]business. Point in case: how’s the blood diamond trade going ? Look, I’m not saying the US, or Europe, or even Canada is particularly bad for doing those things. That’s how the world has been run since day one. Everyone’s out for himself, taking care of their own. Just don’t blow smoke up our ass and tell us you’re any special or different. And if China becomes the next Rome, well, they won’t be any different either. It’s just bad for us because we’re not ones of their own, and it’s going to be our turn on the pony getting fucked until we bleed. [QUOTE=Qin Shi Huangdi] It was Barack Obama who abandoned manned space programs and it was Bush who vowed to send men to Mars. [/QUOTE] Yeah ? How many billions he gave NASA ? Talk is cheap. ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/72 "2011-08-14T05:35:54Z")
> [@Zany\_Zeolite\_Zipper](#): > > Is this a woosh? Everyone knows that **S** as **K** atchewan is an administrative division on the Kamchatka Peninsula. My bad ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/73 "2011-08-14T06:29:57Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Do you honestly believe George W. Bush is the moral equivalent of Hitler or Stalin or Mao or Khomeini? Had your question answered yet? It is quite obvious from this thread they do believe this. They think their lives, or the people in the rest of the world, would be no worse off if the latter people had free rein in the world and the US had never existed. Bonus question: Care to guess which side of the political spectrum most of them reside on? ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/74 "2011-08-14T09:30:12Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I want to make sure I’m not misunderstanding what you guys are saying. You are both saying that there is no substantial difference between the United States under Bush or any other bad American President and the various countries led by Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Khomeini. That we are all basically equal in terms of morality. Is that your view? Li’l nitpick here: I wouldn’t put Khomeini in the same category as Hitler, Stalin and Mao. If Hitler had stopped after The Night Of The Long Knives but never gotten around to the Holocaust, or if Stalin had stopped after the mock trials but never gotten around to the Holodomor, your comparison would be valid, but as the facts stand Khomeini was bad, evil and what have you, but not downright _genocidal_. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/75 "2011-08-14T09:34:05Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Well for example Nehru was so horrified by the atomic bomb that he strongly opposed the harnessing of nuclear power itself (in Nixon’s autobiography), of Ah, so because of Nehru’s strong, principled anti-nuke, anti-science stance, India never ever developed nuclear weapons. Oh… [Wait](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqcbqh-GtNw). ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/76 "2011-08-14T09:53:18Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > The world’s largest economy. The world’s strongest military. A leader in technology in several areas including space. > > Of course we do get dragged down in many areas and it is caused by massive numbers of illegals and a high black illegitimacy rate. high black illegitimacy rate??! What the fuck is this, and in what ways does it relate to the topic? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/77 "2011-08-14T10:29:32Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > North Korea’s a good example. The United States didn’t create the Kim regime - we’ve opposed it. > > Do you think the world would be a better place if the United States was replaced by the kind of country that thought putting somebody like Kim Il Sung in power was a good idea? Do you honestly believe George W. Bush is the moral equivalent of Hitler or Stalin or Mao or Khomeini? > > I’ll never claim the United States is perfect. I’m just saying we’re better than any of the realistic alternatives. The Kims are on China. Saddam Hussein was on us. The Reds have Pol Pot, the US got Papa Doc Duvalier. You tell me which side is mo’ better. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/78 "2011-08-14T14:57:36Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Had your question answered yet? It is quite obvious from this thread they do believe this. They think their lives, or the people in the rest of the world, would be no worse off if the latter people had free rein in the world and the US had never existed. > Bonus question: Care to guess which side of the political spectrum most of them reside on? That would be the correct side . Stop the hyperbole. The claim is that the US has interfered many times supporting dictators. Even you rightys have to admit that. The people in those countries suffered terribly. Do you think the people who got slaughtered and exploited will just shrug it off. Our aggressive role in making third world countries safe for business is why so many people across the globe hate us. Nineteen out of the highjackers were from Saudi Arabia. Strange isn’t it that we have been propping up the Saudi government so long. We overthrew an elected government in Iran and installed the Peacock Throne and put the Shah in charge. Wonder why the Iranis don’t trust us? We have a terrible record in Korea, Chilie, and other nations. Those are simply the facts. Being honest about that is not being anti American. We will not do better in the future if we don’t accurately assess our past. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/79 "2011-08-14T18:30:48Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > The Kims are on China. Saddam Hussein was on us. No, Saddam Hussein is one of “theirs”. The United States supported the Hashemite regime back in the fifties which was overthrown by the Ba’athists with Soviet support. Saddam rose to the top of the Ba’athist regime and took over Iraq without our help. It wasn’t until later, when he was firmly in power, that we supported Saddam in his war against Iran. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523/80 "2011-08-14T19:57:34Z")
[Saddam's Hidden History by Joel Bleifuss](http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Iraq/Saddam's_Hidden_History.html) We helped Saddam against Iran in the 8 year war. We sold him the gases he used . Rumsfield and Cheney were in on it. The CIA gave Saddam money for assassinations before he became Iraq leader. Saddam was terrible character but we have no problem supporting people like him when they are useful. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-it-really-be-that-bad-if-america-wasnt-1/592523.md?page=5)