# Would Jesus be a Liberal or a Conservative? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2010, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679 "2010-04-19T22:44:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/61 "2010-04-20T21:12:31Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The people who live without knowing God and His Love are already in death and Hell and bound by the Law, forced to live up to a standard they can never achieve. God waits for us to come home and is ready at any moment we are to take us back, extends grace so as to forgive all transgressions now and forever. > > What was your question again? If virtue is it’s own reward, then why did Jesus find it necessary to remind his audience of the terrible wages of sin? Do you believe people would pursue righteous lives if they were only told of the glory of eternity with God, without the threat of damnation hanging over their head? How is this not coercion? ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/62 "2010-04-20T21:17:25Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > I frankly see in “his teachings” (warning: I am not religious at all, so all I’ve gotten is some plato’s cave rendering of what is actually in the good book) a very realistic notion that “life on earth” is shitty, harsh, plagued by scarcity, and that everyone should collectively help everyone else try to get through it, and in doing so you earn your passage into the next world. So basically Jesus is Buddhist. Just not an atheistic Buddhist. Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/63 "2010-04-20T23:42:42Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > If virtue is it’s own reward, then why did Jesus find it necessary to remind his audience of the terrible wages of sin? Do you believe people would pursue righteous lives if they were only told of the glory of eternity with God, without the threat of damnation hanging over their head? > > How is this not coercion? The choice is life with God or ‘live’ without Him. It’s our choice. Without Him sin will have horrible consequences, He is just telling us the truth of the situation. How is God suppose to help someone who does not want His help. Because we are His children, He does ease us into the discomfort of being without Him, but He does allow us to experience what it would be like. It is not punishment, but a result of if you really want to be without God (or be your own god). The common scare tactic, believe or go to hell, does not seem like God’s way, and is not the way I came to Him, nor do I concern myself with saving people from Hell, I don’t want that burden, that is God’s job. Mine is just to allow Jesus to express His Love through me, to make known Jesus’ Love. As for the threat, it’s not a threat, it’s real and happening to people you see - yes people are in Hell, though the fire and demons are hidden from them, they are slowly burning away, perhaps through several lives, each one getting harder. The process is already started, and Jesus wants to take them out of that. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/64 "2010-04-20T23:48:04Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > J.C. would be a modern day communist. I’d go 60’s _commune_ist. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/65 "2010-04-20T23:48:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Would Jesus be a Liberal or a Conservative? Jesus…would be a fan of the Chicago Cubs. Obviously. He suffered for our sins, & any Cubs fan suffers a lot. NEXT YEAR! THE PENNANT! ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/66 "2010-04-20T23:48:51Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > What’s going to help it the intent of the heart, not the dollar amount given Agreed > [@](#): > > Money taken by taxing is money taken at gunpoint, it is tainted by threat of fear and force, but freely given from the heart is what is really wanted. If someone wants to hold on to their money: No, money taken by taxing is not money taken at gunpoint. The question is what taxation is fair. We want schools roads, a fire and police department so most people understand taxes for things they see as necessary. At some point people rightfully question whether certain taxation is fair and or necessary and how exactly is it being spent. Jesus also said “render unto Ceaser what is Ceaser’s” when asked about taxes, telling people that even if taxes are unfair make non material things your priority. The OPs question is whether Jesus would support a bill designed to help those less fortunate. It seems fairly clear to me from his teachings that he would, telling those with objections to give joyfully to help others and not give in to anger and resentment over the details. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/67 "2010-04-20T23:50:15Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The choice is life with God or ‘live’ without Him. It’s our choice. Without Him sin will have horrible consequences… Hold on, stop right there. There is the coercion, right there. We have no one’s word but Jesus’ that eternity without god is a horrible consequence. For all we know, it is just boring, or incredibly titillating, or any one of a hundred synonyms for pleasures not associated with godliness. Why should we believe being separated from god is a bad thing? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/68 "2010-04-20T23:51:31Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > What about righteous living that is coerced by the threat of eternal damnation? Is that also tainted? oh boy, that’s a good one. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/69 "2010-04-20T23:52:56Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > No, money taken by taxing is not money taken at gunpoint. When they withhold my taxes from my paycheck I have them wave a gun at me for old times’ sake. They seem strangely reluctant, but I insist. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/70 "2010-04-21T00:00:30Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > When they withhold my taxes from my paycheck I have them wave a gun at me for old times’ sake. They seem strangely reluctant, but I insist. 🙂 I just have them include a picture of a gun with a note that says “We have one of these!” ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/71 "2010-04-21T00:02:22Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This is a phony characterization of taxation, which everybody supports and wants to benfit from, incuding you. > > Do you drive on public roads? Do you eat USDA inspected foods? Do you want a military? Do you want to be able to call the cops or the fire department? Do you haul your own garbage or do you rely on a sanitation department? If you haul your own garbage, do you own a private dump or do you use a public one? Have you ever mailed a letter? Listened to public airwaves? Benefited from street lights? Taken a shower? Flushed a toilet? Do you want a criminal justice system? Do you want there to be prisons or should all criminal justice be a private enterprise? Did you support the invasion of Iraq? Afghanistan? Should WWII have been fought? The Revolutionary War? > > Does a state have a responsibility to help those who can’t take care of thmselves? If a live, newborn baby is found abandoned outside a hospital, should the state take responsibility for it and take care of it, or just leave it lying on the sidewalk? Should the elderly and the disabled just be left to fend for themselves? Does the stae have any responsibility to abandoned or neglected children? > > If you support any of this stuff, then you support state collectivism. Whatever money you make, you make because the government makes it possible. Without the government, you wouldn’t have a cent. Not only that, but you’d probably be sickly and illiterate and living in a tin shack. > > Ayn Rand is sophomoric, self-centered, fraudulent crap. Mature beyond high school already. The only thing sophomoric here is your understanding of my theory of government. I’ve consistently stated that I oppose the unjustified use of force, not simply all use of force. I think that taxes are OK if the money will be used to pay for what I believe is a legitimate government function, which is anything that (1) has a more-or-less equal benefit for all citizens and (2) it would be extremely difficult to do if the government didn’t do it. So, legitimate government funtions include at least the military, police, courts, and roads. I will cop to not expressing this idea as completely as possible in the post you quoted, but I’ve said it so often that I thought it was a known quantity by now. And you don’t understand it anyway, so you would keep attacking a straw man no matter what I posted. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/72 "2010-04-21T00:02:45Z")
[QUOTE] > [@kanicbird](#): > > The choice is life with God or ‘live’ without Him. It’s our choice. Without Him sin will have horrible consequences, and with him all sin is forgiven, even the sins we commit after accepting Jesus so party on. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/73 "2010-04-21T00:40:37Z")
> [@](#): > > I think that taxes are OK if the money will be used to pay for what I believe is a legitimate government function, which is anything that (1) has a more-or-less equal benefit for all citizens and (2) it would be extremely difficult to do if the government didn’t do it. For instance, we all have very similar bodies, and thus gain more-or-less equal benefit from health coverage, and we’ve proven that we can’t do it well through private industry, given that we pay twice as much for worse results compared to the places that do it through the government. So health coverage is a legitimate government function, and you support taxes for it, right? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/74 "2010-04-21T00:55:58Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Well, yeah, but – leaving taxes out of it for a moment – would Jesus be okay with private individuals forcibly taking money from said fellow citizens to provide that health care, via armed robbery on their own initiative? > > > > Let’s deal with that question first, and then promptly move on to the different question of whether he’d authorize taxation to accomplish the same (and then note that once a tax is in place he of course says you should pay it). > > You’ll have to show me that question is relevant first. I’ll try. You and I apparently disagree over whether Jesus would authorize taxation to accomplish a particular goal. I’m curious as to whether we _ **also** _ disagree over whether he’d authorize private individuals who’d like to engage in armed robbery to accomplish a particular goal. Your answer to the latter question may well help me gain a better understanding of why we disagree about the former one. (Remember, I honestly _ **don’t** _ know what you think Jesus would say about private individuals deciding on their own initiative to engage in armed robbery; it may be irrelevant, or it may be entirely relevant.) > [@](#): > > Let’s say a group of private citizens get together to discuss helping a neighbor who needs some help with medical bills. The majority are willing to pitch in and help but a few say “no thanks I’m keeping what’s mine , I earned it, and their problems are thier problems.” What do you suppose Jesus would say about those who refused to help? I think he’d be against that. I _ **also** _ think he’d be against people forcibly robbing those citizens. I likewise think he’d (a) be against people not turning the other cheek when struck, sure as I think he’d (b) also be against striking people in the first place. I think he’s the guy who tells the woman to go and sin no more right after making clear that he’s against folks who’d like to cast the first stone against her. I think he’s a guy who tells people to forgive others their trespasses, not someone who tells people to go trespassing. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/75 "2010-04-21T01:02:22Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Agreed > > No, money taken by taxing is not money taken at gunpoint. The question is what taxation is fair. We want schools roads, a fire and police department so most people understand taxes for things they see as necessary. At some point people rightfully question whether certain taxation is fair and or necessary and how exactly is it being spent. Some people God has raised above government authority and when they pay taxes the Father reaches into the government coffers and return those funds. That’s what pay to Ceaser what is Ceaser’s means, also what it means to submit to the authority that God has placed over you. If they are over you, then pay, if not then you don’t. God can supply those needs far better then government can. > [@](#): > > Jesus also said “render unto Ceaser what is Ceaser’s” when asked about taxes, telling people that even if taxes are unfair make non material things your priority. The OPs question is whether Jesus would support a bill designed to help those less fortunate. It seems fairly clear to me from his teachings that he would, telling those with objections to give joyfully to help others and not give in to anger and resentment over the details. As pointed out, money is not needed, just caring and Love. It is always the Love of God that heals the sick, not medical treatment nor technology, though the method of healing can use the above. As such a bill would not make any difference and it would not be a issue. All He has to do is send out His people into the world with the gift of healing, and get rid of the illusion that money or technology of man makes any difference. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/76 "2010-04-21T01:06:03Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Some people God has raised above government authority and when they pay taxes the Father reaches into the government coffers and return those funds. That’s what pay to Ceaser what is Ceaser’s means, also what it means to submit to the authority that God has placed over you. If they are over you, then pay, if not then you don’t. God can supply those needs far better then government can. > > As pointed out, money is not needed, just caring and Love. It is always the Love of God that heals the sick, not medical treatment nor technology, though the method of healing can use the above. > > As such a bill would not make any difference and it would not be a issue. All He has to do is send out His people into the world with the gift of healing, and get rid of the illusion that money or technology of man makes any difference. Are you a Pentecoastal? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/77 "2010-04-21T01:08:07Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Hold on, stop right there. There is the coercion, right there. We have no one’s word but Jesus’ that eternity without god is a horrible consequence. For all we know, it is just boring, or incredibly titillating, or any one of a hundred synonyms for pleasures not associated with godliness. We won’t spend eternity without Him, we will eventually want to come home, it’s just how long we what to try to make it on our own. > [@](#): > > Why should we believe being separated from god is a bad thing? Well you are now, how is it going, are you without pain, sickness, are you living in a beautiful world full of Love? Do you know everyone you meet intimately? Perhaps your life is not so bad, but how long will that last, eventually things will get worse, and that is not correctable by you. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/78 "2010-04-21T01:10:09Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > and with him all sin is forgiven, even the sins we commit after accepting Jesus so party on. You become God’s child, so He does teach you His ways. But yes the restrictions are off and everything is permissible if done in Love - and you can do a lot in Love. It is also you learn to hear God, so He corrects you if you did something wrong, which may be just letting you know that He wanted you to do something that you didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/79 "2010-04-21T01:13:43Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Are you a Pentecoastal? I do attend different services and faiths as lead by the Holy Spirit, but don’t generally associate with the religious name such as pentecostal . Yes I have attended Pentecostal services, but also Lutheran, Reformed, RC, and for that matter Native American, Wiccian, Pagan ect.. Again there are no restrictions when you are under grace and you go where He sends you. I consider myself a servant of Lord Jesus Christ. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/80 "2010-04-21T01:15:44Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I do attend different services and faiths as lead by the Holy Spirit, but don’t generally associate with the religious name such as pentecostal . Yes I have attended Pentecostal services, but also Lutheran, Reformed, RC, and for that matter Native American, Wiccian, Pagan ect.. Again there are no restrictions when you are under grace and you go where He sends you. > > I consider myself a servant of Lord Jesus Christ. A clarified question: Do you believe in faith healing? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679.md?page=5)