# Would Jesus be a Liberal or a Conservative? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2010, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679 "2010-04-19T22:44:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/81 "2010-04-21T01:24:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Here’s another way to look at it. Jesus proved that he was fully capable of healing anyone, to the point of raising people from the dead. Since he didn’t cure everyone, even in his immediate environs, it would seem that he did not favor UHC. Here’s another way to look at it. Jesus proved that he was fully capable of healing anyone, to the point of raising people from the dead. However, no where in the bible is there any record of Jesus charging a fee (or even asking for a donation) for healing anyone or raising some one from the dead. It would seem he did favor UHC and was in fact the first healer to practice socialized medicine. ---
**Author:** ![Ston\_Col](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Ston\_Col](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ston_Col)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/82 "2010-04-21T01:30:12Z")
Not only is there no evidence Jesus would have participated in a political or social movement, but there’s direct evidence to the contrary. His every action was designed to break down a Jewish norm or custom. He systematically pissed off every influential group in Israel. He was supposed to be the Muad’Dib; a long-prophesied king who would lead a violent uprising, and drive the conquerors from Israel. Afterwards, he would establish an authoritarian theocracy. Jesus had other plans. > [@](#): > > say JC avoids crucifixion, winds up becoming extremely popular, and is faced with a mob of devotees who won’t listen to anything but what He says. what’s he gonna say “sorry, guys! I’m apolitical. Don’t look to me for any of that social ordering crapola” Yeah, if someone actually did that, his mob of followers would crucify him! Oh, wait… ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/83 "2010-04-21T02:23:58Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > For instance, we all have very similar bodies, and thus gain more-or-less equal benefit from health coverage, and we’ve proven that we can’t do it well through private industry, given that we pay twice as much for worse results compared to the places that do it through the government. So health coverage is a legitimate government function, and you support taxes for it, right? First, you’ve made several mistakes in your question that would take me hours to fully discuss and that you would ignore anyway. These mistakes include (i) you think it’s automatically a bad thing that US citizens spend more on health care than citizens of other countries and (ii) you assume that US citizens have “worse health results” than citizens of countries with UHC. Second, to answer your question, having the government buy health insurance (or pay for health care) for Bob helps Bob much more than it helps other people. Therefore, there is not a more-or-less equal benefit to all citizens, so it’s not a legitimate government function. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/84 "2010-04-21T02:48:34Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I’ll try. > > You and I apparently disagree over whether Jesus would authorize taxation to accomplish a particular goal. I’m curious as to whether we _ **also** _ disagree over whether he’d authorize private individuals who’d like to engage in armed robbery to accomplish a particular goal. > > Your answer to the latter question may well help me gain a better understanding of why we disagree about the former one. (Remember, I honestly _ **don’t** _ know what you think Jesus would say about private individuals deciding on their own initiative to engage in armed robbery; it may be irrelevant, or it may be entirely relevant.) That really didn’t clarify anything or explain why you think it’s relevant. There is no valid equivalency between armed robbery and taxes that I can see. As someone mentioned, it’s about intent. > [@](#): > > I think he’d be against that. I think so too. That’s why he’d support UHC. IMO. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/85 "2010-04-21T03:09:29Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Some people God has raised above government authority and when they pay taxes the Father reaches into the government coffers and return those funds. That’s what pay to Ceaser what is Ceaser’s means, also what it means to submit to the authority that God has placed over you. If they are over you, then pay, if not then you don’t. God can supply those needs far better then government can. Well. so far they’re both doing a lousy job. I would say, via free will, we get to choose what kind of society to have, one that reflects the teachings of JC, such as helping each other, and reaching out to the poor, or a society where the haves justify withholding from the have nots. > [@](#): > > As pointed out, money is not needed, just caring and Love. Yeah, I went to my local grocery store and asked what items I could have for caring and love. I’m still very hungry. > [@](#): > > It is always the Love of God that heals the sick, not medical treatment nor technology, though the method of healing can use the above. > > As such a bill would not make any difference and it would not be a issue. All He has to do is send out His people into the world with the gift of healing, and get rid of the illusion that money or technology of man makes any difference. I’m all for that. Let me know when that happens. ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/86 "2010-04-21T03:10:39Z")
Did Jesus provide universal miracle-care for all, or did just to a select few? He probably would have been a tea-bagger. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/87 "2010-04-21T03:14:17Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > You become God’s child, so He does teach you His ways. But yes the restrictions are off and everything is permissible if done in Love - and you can do a lot in Love. It is also you learn to hear God, so He corrects you if you did something wrong, which may be just letting you know that He wanted you to do something that you didn’t. can we sin in love? I hear Christians still sin after they have accepted Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/88 "2010-04-21T11:32:24Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > That really didn’t clarify anything or explain why you think it’s relevant. There is no valid equivalency between armed robbery and taxes that I can see. It astonishes me that you can’t even give a quick answer – as I did, to the question you tacked on – before simply adding that you don’t see the relevance. Still, let’s see if I can clarify my position in hopes that you’ll mention yours. I of course believe Jesus would tell you not to engage in armed robbery. I also believe he would tell you to turn the other cheek even if I smack you upside the head, and would tell you to forgive me all my trespasses no matter what sins I commit against you; I further believe he’d tell you to refrain from casting the first stone against me or any other sinner, sure as I believe he would tell you to resist not evil. I believe he would tell you, if you’re faced with an onerous tax, to quiveringly say “yes, sir” and render unto Caesar’s what is Caesar’s. I believe he would tell you, if you’re faced with burly men who’d like to nail you to a piece of wood, that his own example is dispositive: resist not evil, turn the other cheek, forgive trespasses, all that other stuff. I likewise believe he’s against the opposite of that other stuff. He wants me to submit to armed robbery sure as he wants you to refrain from it. He wants you to turn the other cheek if I smack you upside the head, but he _ **doesn’t** _ okay me smacking you upside the head in the first place. He wants you to forgive all my trespasses against you, but he doesn’t give me the go-ahead for committing trespasses. He wants you to refrain from casting the first stone against a sinner like me, but he promptly adds that I should go and sin no more. > [@](#): > > As someone mentioned, it’s about intent. No, IMO it’s not; it’s about a ban on the use of force, whether sinned against or sinning, with no “it’s okay if you’re doing it for this or that intent” exception ever spelled out. Where do you think he spells out such an exception for an unusual intent? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/89 "2010-04-21T11:53:07Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I think that taxes are OK if the money will be used to pay for what I believe is a legitimate government function, which is anything that (1) has a more-or-less equal benefit for all citizens and (2) it would be extremely difficult to do if the government didn’t do it. So, legitimate government funtions include at least the military, police, courts, and roads. But this doesn’t change the fact that your basic point vis-a-vis this OP is crap. There is no inherent contradiction between taxes and “do unto others”. You would have others pay tax as you would yourself pay tax. You would not tolerate others failing to pay tax that you felt that you should, yourself, pay. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/90 "2010-04-21T12:08:10Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > A clarified question: Do you believe in faith healing? I have experienced it and the Lord has used me to heal others. I believe all healing comes from Love or transference (which is not really healing, but it may appear so), no healing is through medical science. Medical science man has put his trust in, so God allows Love to flow through that, but it is Love that heals, medical science just is a distraction. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/91 "2010-04-21T12:15:11Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Yeah, I went to my local grocery store and asked what items I could have for caring and love. I’m still very hungry. Ask God, see what He provides > [@](#): > > I’m all for that. Let me know when that happens. It is happening, through coming to know God you get to see these things. We become blinded to this when we start learning about our (3d) world. I theorize that God has to build new neural pathways, which is a learning process, to allow us to see beyond. As it stands one’s mind just can’t accept it and to protect itself rejects things of God. If you ask God that you want to know Him and see beyond what you can see, He is faithful and will teach you - the learning process is that of a developing infant. The gift of healing is the flow of the Love of God, it is a community effort, those who Love you created additional pathways for Love and increase that power. It is God’s wish that we all be connected together, so that is why God doesn’t usually allow that much power in a single person, He wants us all connected. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/92 "2010-04-21T12:30:03Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > can we sin in love? I hear Christians still sin after they have accepted Jesus. You can not sin in Love, as pointed out below: > [@](#): > > Galatians 5:22-24 (New International Version) > > 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. If you mistake the leading of the Holy Spirit, but act in Love to the best of your understanding, then God will turn whatever ‘bad’ you may have done to the good, even if that takes moving heaven and earth. But a Christian can rebel, basically saying to God, after getting clear instructions ‘No I don’t wanna’, usually there will be some time God will give for us to think it over, but if we still refuse then we can expect something along the lines of Jonah, which is a extreme example of someone holding out on God, and I believe Jonah could have ended it at any time by accepting it. God also listens to Christ in us. The Holy Spirit can hear our heart, and if it is true God can change things. One example is Abraham pleading for the people of Sodom, God agreed not to destroy the city if certain conditions we found. I believe if Abraham’s faith was strong enough he could have got God down to a single righteous person, or even a request for God to send a single righteous person to save that city and God would have allowed it. Jonah was one such person sent to save Nineveh. This last paragraph is not so much as God changing His mind, but God linking with us, becoming one with us, and therefor has access to our compassion for others, this is sometimes called the ‘Christ consciousnesses’. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/93 "2010-04-21T12:55:07Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > No, IMO it’s not; it’s about a ban on the use of force, whether sinned against or sinning, with no “it’s okay if you’re doing it for this or that intent” exception ever spelled out. Where do you think he spells out such an exception for an unusual intent? Taxes in a democratic system are voluntary, not forced. They are what collectively have decided we should contribute. Jesus was not only all for collectivism, but all for the killing of anyone who didn’t cough up. That’s what he thought the Messiah was going to do. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/94 "2010-04-21T13:02:10Z")
All these attempts to equate taxes with “theft” or “armed robbery” are ridiculous. That’s like saying a landlord is “stealing” or “using force” when he collects the rent. Taxes are the rent you pay to live in a society and receive the benefits. If you don’t want to pay the rent, you are welcome to leave. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/95 "2010-04-21T13:03:22Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > It astonishes me that you can’t even give a quick answer – as I did, to the question you tacked on – before simply adding that you don’t see the relevance. I asked you to explain how it was relevant. You didn’t. > [@](#): > > Still, let’s see if I can clarify my position in hopes that you’ll mention yours. That would be helpful. > [@](#): > > I of course believe Jesus would tell you not to engage in armed robbery. I thought that was fairly obvious too so when you said you honestly didn’t know how I felt about that it seemed like some silly game. I agree, Jesus wouldn’t promote armed robbery, and I maintain this obvious point has no relevance to the OP. > [@](#): > > I believe he would tell you, if you’re faced with an onerous tax, to quiveringly say “yes, sir” and render unto Caesar’s what is Caesar’s. Why would he ask me to quiver? I’d say he ask us to love the tax collector and our elected officials even when we disagreed with them. But again, this is not the OP. > [@](#): > > I likewise believe he’s against the opposite of that other stuff. He wants me to submit to armed robbery sure as he wants you to refrain from it. He wants you to turn the other cheek if I smack you upside the head, but he _ **doesn’t** _ okay me smacking you upside the head in the first place. He wants you to forgive all my trespasses against you, but he doesn’t give me the go-ahead for committing trespasses. He wants you to refrain from casting the first stone against a sinner like me, but he promptly adds that I should go and sin no more. I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make with this regarding the OP. > [@](#): > > No, IMO it’s not; it’s about a ban on the use of force, whether sinned against or sinning, with no “it’s okay if you’re doing it for this or that intent” exception ever spelled out. Where do you think he spells out such an exception for an unusual intent? As I said, there is no equivalency between the force in an armed robbery and a tax you don’t agree with. We live in a society of laws and when our lawmakers create a law and an accompanying tax we have choices we can make. By being citizens we agreed as a group to abide by certain laws and rules, and we have the means to change them if we want to do the work, or we have the choice to move to some other place. The concept of intent is all over the NT {read the sermon on the MT again in Mat 5, 6, 7} and our own legal system and concepts of justice. That’s why there’s a difference between manslaughter and murder. In this case it’s about the intent of the law we’re discussing. Regardless of details we don’t like, if the overall intent is to help people have better accessible health care, I’d say that falls under “do unto others” and Jesus pretty obvious teachings of helping the less fortunate. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/96 "2010-04-21T13:04:35Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > How is that utopian? We’re talking about Christ’s “everyone _ **should** _…” admonishment, not Marx’s “everyone _ **can** _ if we just order society the right way” theory of economics. From my understanding, Jesus wanted a society where the law would be “love one another”. That sounds like a utopia to me. YMMV, of course. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/97 "2010-04-21T13:05:34Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Ask God, see what He provides I just hope I get peanut butter with my manna. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/98 "2010-04-21T13:11:41Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > You can not sin in Love, as pointed out below: and yet Christians who have received Christ and the HS continue to sin. > [@](#): > > If you mistake the leading of the Holy Spirit, but act in Love to the best of your understanding, then God will turn whatever ‘bad’ you may have done to the good, even if that takes moving heaven and earth. \*\*kb \*\* let’s not go there and try to stay on the OP. In the same way the good Samaritan helped the injured traveler , rather than telling him to just pray for healing, we, through this health care reform and the associated taxes, have an opportunity to help the less fortunate. That strikes me as something Jesus would support. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/99 "2010-04-21T13:16:11Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > All these attempts to equate taxes with “theft” or “armed robbery” are ridiculous. That’s like saying a landlord is “stealing” or “using force” when he collects the rent. > > Taxes are the rent you pay to live in a society and receive the benefits. If you don’t want to pay the rent, you are welcome to leave. Seems fairly simple doesn’t it? Not only that you can negotiate with the LL and even vote the LL out if you don’t like the rent. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679/100 "2010-04-21T15:15:05Z")
Or even _become_ the LL if you can convince enough people you’d be better at it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/536679.md?page=6)