# Would Jesus be a Liberal or a Conservative? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 23, 2015, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/732285 "2015-09-23T10:37:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/732285/41 "2015-09-24T05:50:48Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That does not seem necessarily to be true. > > [Cite](http://brighthall.aol.com/2008/12/22/study-conservatives-more-generous-than-liberals/). > The strongest correlation is between charitable giving and practicing your religion, but the notion that liberals give to operas and conservatives to churches, and the amount is the same, does not seem to be the case. The study underlying your citation was superseded. Wonkblog at WAPO: [INDENT][http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2012/10/21/study-conservatives-and-liberals-are-equally-charitable-but-they-give-to-different-charities/](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2012/10/21/study-conservatives-and-liberals-are-equally-charitable-but-they-give-to-different-charities/) Michele Margolis and Michael Sances note that Brooks’ conclusion comes from a dataset that doesn’t really ask how conservative people are politically so much as how conservative they are socially. Using a dataset which uses more traditional questions to test political beliefs - the General Social Survey - they found **no statistically significant relationship** between peoples’ political beliefs, or their partisan affiliation, and their charitable giving level. And this held at the state level too. There was no significant relationship between a state’s level of giving and the vote share that Bush received in that state in 2004. [/INDENT] Emphasis added. They go on to say though that the type of charity varies by political beliefs: conservatives give more to churches, while liberals gave more to secular organizations and 2005 tsunami relief. According to this [article](http://articles.latimes.com/2014/mar/31/business/la-fi-mh-conservatives-or-liberals-20140331) churches give 10-25% of donations to social welfare programs. As for the OP, Jesus was clearly an ultra-liberal and I have a full set of cherry picked quotes to prove it. Coincidentally so am I. Huh. Save the whales! ETA: I see that the MIT studies equated total charitable giving between conservatives and liberals by looking at shares of income going to charity. In the LA Times article, they note that conservatives have higher incomes in their sample, so that the aggregate amount given to charity overall by conservatives is apparently higher. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/732285/42 "2015-09-24T20:58:31Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You’d think if God was so concerned about prohibiting abortions, he’d have mentioned it in the Bible. > > People like Basil the Great and John Calvin may have opposed abortions. But that doesn’t mean Jesus did. On the first point, you can raise a whole big debate on what the bible says or doesn’t say about abortion. To your second point, I agree Jesus would not have based his own beliefs on what John Calvin or anyone else thought. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/732285/43 "2015-09-24T21:52:45Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > One could, for instanced, argue that Jesus self-admittedly brought a message to shake things up and change the way things were done, which pretty much by definition makes him the opposite of a “conservative” who is maintaining the status quo. (You could say that he said he would not “change a jot or a tittle” of the Law, but you have to consider that in light of his doing things that upset the local religious authorities. What he considered consistent with the old Law wasn’t exactly what they did.) So he was a “Liberal” in seeking to change things. Well, no, generally speaking, that would make him a revolutionary. “Revolutionary” is a thing with no definite content other than that, it applies regardless of the **kind** of radical change you want to make. So does “reformer.” Liberalism, OTOH, does have definite content; it is an Enlightenment-and-later thing with no analogue in the ancient world. See [here](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/PoliticalIdeologies). > [@](#): > > The chief objective for liberalism is human freedom … with reasonable limits. ‘Freedom’ means the ability to do what one wills with one’s own life and property. Liberals differ from Anarchists in that they believe that people need to be ‘oppressed’ by governments in order to be free in other respects — though they value government only for the freedom it brings, and don’t consider it something valuable or desirable in itself. Classical Liberals contend that government should only police the country and prevent interference from foreign governments because this allows people the maximum amount of freedom (negative freedom), whereas Modern/Social Liberals say that government must proactively give freedom to its citizens by making sure they’re not oppressed or disadvantaged or dying (positive freedom). > > Also, as far as Classic Liberals are concerned, Liberalism has nothing to do with _equality._ Modern Liberals disagree on the grounds that an unequal society _is an unfree society_ for the majority of poor and disadvantaged individuals — whom their rich and privileged minority counterparts are free to oppress if the government doesn’t protect them. > > There have been some splits in liberalism over time. The first important split is the one between natural-law liberalism and utilitarian liberalism. Natural-law liberalism holds that humans, due to divine or natural law, have certain rights that no government should infringe upon. These rights are due to self-ownership, meaning that you own yourself, and no other _human_ does (though you may belong to _God,_ according to early liberals, you do not belong to any other _person)._ John Locke was a major proponent for this view, which was also influential in The American Revolution. > > Utilitarian liberalism grew in popularity in the 19th century, and it holds that the best course of action is to pursue what would bring the greatest happiness to the greatest number of people. Since only the individual knows what would bring the greatest happiness to himself or herself, then governments should pursue a policy of personal autonomy, letting everybody pursue their own happiness. The most influential advocate for utilitarian liberalism is John Stuart Mill. > > The other great split is between classical liberalism and left-liberalism. The split between classical liberalism and left-liberalism (also known as social liberalism) is arguably due to different concepts of rights. To the classical liberals, rights are nullifications of the power of the State\* (i.e. the ability to legitimately initiate the use \*of force), meaning no individual or groups thereof can use force, fraud or threats thereof to stop any other individual from performing a specific action. For instance, if you have the right to free speech, this means that no individual or institution can _start_ or _threaten_ the use of force or fraud against you in order to stop you from speaking in a specific way (provided, of course, said speech constituted neither fraud nor coercion). > > To social liberals, rights are seen as _entitlements to the ability to perform specific actions._ For instance, if you have the right to education, this means that other people (or groups thereof) must act in order to provide you an education if you cannot provide it yourself. > > So, to classical liberals, rights are things _others cannot use force to stop you from doing,_ and to social liberals, rights are things that _others must enable you to do._ Isaiah Berlin referred to the former as “negative liberty” and the latter as “positive liberty.” There’s really no mapping any of that onto the Beatitudes, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Mikeisskeptical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@Mikeisskeptical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikeisskeptical)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/732285/44 "2015-09-24T22:18:12Z")
As others have said, it’s pretty pointless trying to shoe-horn a historical(ish) figure into any modern political category. That said, the idea that he might be a Conservative baffles me. Certainly, in the broadest sense you’d have to consider him ‘left-wing’. ‘It’s easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven.’ He wasn’t speaking in riddles there, the message is about as unambiguous as it’s possible to be. ‘it’s f@#king impossible for a rich man to enter heaven.’ ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/732285/45 "2015-09-25T02:02:22Z")
Also, it’s clear from several verses that Jesus expected the world to end very soon. If so, political/social issues as such would be of trivial importance compared to preparing every soul to meet God’s judgment. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/732285/46 "2015-09-25T02:07:15Z")
Against that is the view of Reza Aslan in [_Zealot_](http://www.amazon.com/Zealot-Life-Times-Jesus-Nazareth/dp/0812981480/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1443146658&sr=1-1&keywords=zealot+reza+aslan) that Jesus’ agenda was political first and foremost: He wanted to overthrow the priests because the priests were hand in glove with the Romans (who always preferred to rule through local elites when they could), and were sucking the pious people dry with their Temple fees and such (that’s why his first target in the Temple was the money changers, who facilitated the whole business by exchanging unclean Greek and Roman coins for clean shekels that could be spent to buy sacrificial animals). ---
**Author:** ![Laggard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de053/32.png) [@Laggard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laggard)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/732285/47 "2015-09-25T03:01:55Z")
My guess is he’d advocate for a redistribution of wealth which would put him solidly to the left. I always saw Jesus as a socialist. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/732285/48 "2015-09-25T12:16:14Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Yes, it is. If one actually reads the article instead of your selective cherry-picked quotes, it’s obvious that there was no clear religious consensus in the past and that the present hysteria isn’t universal either but is mostly limited to fundies. Perhaps you could show how the quotes were selective or cherry-picked by providing a few counter-examples. That is, a few direct quotes from early church fathers that abortion was OK. Got anything like that? And BTW, this - > [@](#): > > There is scholarly disagreement on how early Christians felt about abortion isn’t what I mean. Because the same Wiki article says quite clearly > [@](#): > > Early Christians considered abortion wrong in all circumstances… So, direct quotes that show some basis for this alleged scholarly disagreement. I have already presented the quotes that back up what I have said. Let’s see yours, if any. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/732285/49 "2015-09-25T14:05:34Z")
> [@Laggard](#): > > My guess is he’d advocate for a redistribution of wealth which would put him solidly to the left. I always saw Jesus as a socialist. Indeed, it’s hard to imagine him championing the capitalist model, though he might favor the attendant freedoms that come along with it. OTOH, it’s not hard at all to imagine him happy if citizens of a nation robustly support a strong safety net that provides compassionate and decent care for its most needy. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/732285/50 "2015-09-25T14:07:34Z")
N.B.: What Jesus believed is **not** necessarily the same thing as what even the earliest Christians believed. E.g., Jesus probably never really believed himself God. ---
**Author:** ![davida03801](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5e925/32.png) [@davida03801](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davida03801)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/732285/51 "2015-09-25T14:23:01Z")
“give onto Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and give onto God what belongs to God.” Clearly a separation of the church and state. I myself not see that as a liberal’s statement. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/732285/52 "2015-09-25T14:57:23Z")
> [@davida03801](#): > > Clearly a separation of the church and state. I myself not see that as a liberal’s statement. Huh? Are you saying liberals want more religion in the government? ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/732285/53 "2015-09-25T15:09:25Z")
One thing he would most certainly not be is a Christian. As a devout Jew (and all the evidence suggests that’s exactly what he was) he would find his post-mortem deification shocking and blasphemous. Politically I think he would lean liberal on some things and conservative on others. Same-sex marriage? As if! Anyone from his era (and most others previous to this) would find the concept appalling. Abortion? I think he might adopt a more liberal position on this. Donald Trump? Jesus wept. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/732285/54 "2015-09-25T16:22:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > N.B.: What Jesus believed is **not** necessarily the same thing as what even the earliest Christians believed. E.g., Jesus probably never really believed himself God. Since you believe it to be probable, you must have some evidence for it. All the discussion so far seems to be using what the early church reported about Jesus to decide if He was a liberal or conservative or whatever. Do you have any of that level of evidence to indicate what Jesus believed about His own nature? Keeping in mind that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/732285/55 "2015-09-25T16:26:46Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Since you believe it to be probable, you must have some evidence for it. Easy: Jesus had a human body, capable of feeling pain. (I know there have been branches of Christianity that denied that, but most don’t.) Even God would be crazy to think He was God if He found Himself stuck in a situation where He kept on feeling pain regardless of whether He wanted to or not. Was Jesus crazy? Also: Jesus was a nice Jewish boy – well-versed enough in Scripture to argue it with Pharisees – he knew very well that the Messiah is **not** God in any sense. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/732285/56 "2015-09-25T16:40:19Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > One thing he would most certainly not be is a Christian. As a devout Jew (and all the evidence suggests that’s exactly what he was) he would find his post-mortem deification shocking and blasphemous. Politically I think he would lean liberal on some things and conservative on others. Same-sex marriage? As if! Anyone from his era (and most others previous to this) would find the concept appalling. Abortion? I think he might adopt a more liberal position on this. Donald Trump? Jesus wept. The following is not the bible but Trump would not look nice to Jesus indeed, it is unfortunate that Jesus will not intervene like he did in “The Selfish Giant” ♪ [QUOTE] Building a wall to surround you, Gathering all your treasures around you, Living a life apart. Not having anyone near you; Building a wall and making them fear you, Saying you have no heart. You’re a fool if you think you can live Your life without sharing sunshine and gladness; If you think you can live without love, You’re building a wall of sorrow and madness. [/QUOTE] ♫ ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/732285/57 "2015-09-28T16:41:21Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Easy: Jesus had a human body, capable of feeling pain. (I know there have been branches of Christianity that denied that, but most don’t.) Even God would be crazy to think He was God if He found Himself stuck in a situation where He kept on feeling pain regardless of whether He wanted to or not. Was Jesus crazy? Christianity teaches that the Incarnation and crucifixion were voluntary. Therefore your argument doesn’t work. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/732285/58 "2015-09-28T17:17:35Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Christianity teaches that the Incarnation and crucifixion were voluntary. Therefore your argument doesn’t work. > > Regards, > Shodan All versions of Christianity teach that? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/732285/59 "2015-09-28T17:49:00Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > One thing he would most certainly not be is a Christian. As a devout Jew (and all the evidence suggests that’s exactly what he was) he would find his post-mortem deification shocking and blasphemous. Politically I think he would lean liberal on some things and conservative on others. Same-sex marriage? As if! Anyone from his era (and most others previous to this) would find the concept appalling. But how would he advise me? “Hey, question for you, Jesus: I was gonna whip some rocks at that gay couple for marrying each other; is that okay? Huh. Okay, you got me there – but I can _judge_ them, right? I mean, later this afternoon I plan on judging the heck out of someone who trespassed against me, and – wait, what? _What?_ Oh. Well, still: can you gimme an exception for a homosexual who hates and curses me? One of 'em is suing me tomorrow, and – _sonofabitch,_ that’s some weirdly specific advice. Yeah, I hear ya. Real nice talking with ya, Jesus.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-be-a-liberal-or-a-conservative/732285.md?page=2)