# Would Jesus really condone the Catholic Church? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 24, 2003, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-really-condone-the-catholic-church/184020 "2003-06-24T13:52:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![rhinostylee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bc79bd/32.png) [@rhinostylee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhinostylee)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-really-condone-the-catholic-church/184020/1 "2003-06-24T13:52:03Z")
From all of the stories of Jesus, it seems as though the Catholic Church does not fall in line with anything that Jesus himself would create. To me, Jesus seemed very relaxed and patient, and did not have any arrogance or inflated sense of self-worth. He seemed to mostly care about people being selfless and loving his Father and each other. So I don’t think he would set up his church anything like the Catholic Church. I personally don’t think he would want this extensive hierarchy of priests and cardinals. I doubt he’d want the pope to concern himself with whether or not he was fallible. I think that Jesus would think that the money spent on elaborate and ornate robes for the priests would be better spent actually helping out the poor. I also think that Jesus would think it’s weird to see pictures and statues of himself being crucified . . . why not just a good portrait? I also can’t see Jesus getting all worked up about whether or not priests were married. Remember the story of Jesus going to the temple and getting all pissed because people were using it as a marketplace? I think that if Jesus were alive today, he would get all pissed at the Catholic Church because they missed the mark. I think that Jesus’s church would involve everyone gathering and celebrating God without the formality and rules of the Catholic Church. After everyone met, they would go out into the community and do what they could for other people. Your thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-really-condone-the-catholic-church/184020/2 "2003-06-24T13:57:49Z")
I think Jesus would think, you think to much… ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-really-condone-the-catholic-church/184020/3 "2003-06-24T14:00:42Z")
I don’t think Jesus would have intended to start another religion at all. I think Jesus thought he was a Jew. I think he would be appalled at his own deification. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-really-condone-the-catholic-church/184020/4 "2003-06-24T14:05:53Z")
Well, if he went around saying he was the Son of God, how could he not be deified? ---
**Author:** ![Marathon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Marathon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marathon)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-really-condone-the-catholic-church/184020/5 "2003-06-24T14:08:49Z")
Woah. That’ll teach me to go out clubbing on a Monday night. My tired and bleary eyes just misread that thread title as “Would Jesus condone Charlotte Church?” (Incidentally, I hope he wouldn’t.) 😉 ---
**Author:** ![I\_Brian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c89c15/32.png) [@I\_Brian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Brian)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-really-condone-the-catholic-church/184020/6 "2003-06-24T14:25:10Z")
Jssus railed against the Pharisee’s - only for them to change allegiance and call themselves “Christian Fundamentalists”. That’s where the real tragedy is. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-really-condone-the-catholic-church/184020/7 "2003-06-24T14:45:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neurotik \* > \*\*Well, if he went around saying he was the Son of God, how could he not be deified? \*\* The phrase “son of God” did not connotate divinity to the ancient Jews. It was just a way to say that someone was especially righteous or favored by God. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-really-condone-the-catholic-church/184020/8 "2003-06-24T16:21:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rhinostylee \* > I think that Jesus would think that the money spent on elaborate and ornate robes for the priests would be better spent actually helping out the poor. Really? I seem to recall that when Jesus was in Bethany, at the home of Simon the leper, a woman came to Him with an alabaster vial of very costly perfume, and she poured it on His head as He reclined at the table. Like you, the disciples were indignant at the waste, and pointed out that the perfume might have been sold for a high price and the money given to the poor. Jesus rebuked them and praised the woman, pointing out that the poor would always be with us. Didn’t He? - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-really-condone-the-catholic-church/184020/9 "2003-06-24T16:28:50Z")
> [@](#): > > The phrase “son of God” did not connotate divinity to the ancient Jews. It was just a way to say that someone was especially righteous or favored by God. The high priest at His trial didn’t seem to think so. > [@](#): > > The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.” > “Yes, it is as you say,” Jesus replied. …Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy! - [Matthew 26:63-65.](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=Matthew+26&version=NIV) > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rhinostylee \* > \*\* I think that Jesus would think that the money spent on elaborate and ornate robes for the priests would be better spent actually helping out the poor. > \*\* > [@](#): > > Some of those present were saying indignantly to one another, “Why this waste of perfume? It could have been sold for more than a year’s wages and the money given to the poor.” And they rebuked her harshly. > “Leave her alone,” said Jesus. "Why are you bothering her? She has done a beautiful thing to me. The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want. But you will not always have me. - [Mark 14:4-7.](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MARK+14&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on) > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rhinostylee \* > \*\* > I also think that Jesus would think it’s weird to see pictures and statues of himself being crucified . . . why not just a good portrait? > \*\* Nothing is known about what Jesus looked like, so good portraits of Him are hard to come by. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-really-condone-the-catholic-church/184020/10 "2003-06-24T16:30:10Z")
I see **Bricker** beat me to it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-really-condone-the-catholic-church/184020/11 "2003-06-24T16:45:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bricker \* > \*\*Didn’t He? > > - Rick \*\* Depends on how much validity you put in the quotes. The Jesus Seminar and many scholars seem to believe many of the quotes attributed to Jesus in the four gospels are not authentic. ---
**Author:** ![rhinostylee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bc79bd/32.png) [@rhinostylee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhinostylee)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-really-condone-the-catholic-church/184020/12 "2003-06-24T16:48:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Some of those present were saying indignantly to one another, “Why this waste of perfume? It could have been sold for more than a year’s wages and the money given to the poor.” And they rebuked her harshly. One bottle of perfume is not the same as an entire institution that spends alot of money on elaborate material things used in their rituals. > [@](#): > > Nothing is known about what Jesus looked like, so good portraits of Him are hard to come by. There is a generally accepted image of Jesus, used in both portaits and crucifixes. Although it may be an inaccurate protrayal of what Jesus actually looked like, it is equally inaccurate for any way that he is protrayed. Was your argument supposed to justify the use of crucifixes rather than portaits? Because in either case, it would be an equally inaccurate portrayal of Jesus. In my OP, I was suggesting that Jesus would find it weird to see a statue of himself nailed to a cross, all bloody and tortured. If I was Jesus, I would prefer to see people with non-death pictures and statues of myself. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-really-condone-the-catholic-church/184020/13 "2003-06-24T16:53:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rhinostylee \* > One bottle of perfume is not the same as an entire institution that spends alot of money on elaborate material things used in their rituals. How many bottles of perfume would the woman have to waste on Jesus before He became upset? And what “elaborate things” are you picturing used in the rituals of the Catholic Church? - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_E\_Dec\_Esq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/48db29/32.png) [@Francis\_E\_Dec\_Esq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_E_Dec_Esq)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-really-condone-the-catholic-church/184020/14 "2003-06-24T17:08:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rhinostylee \* > \*\*From all of the stories of Jesus, it seems as though the Catholic Church does not fall in line with anything that Jesus himself would create. To me, Jesus seemed very relaxed and patient, and did not have any arrogance or inflated sense of self-worth. He seemed to mostly care about people being selfless and loving his Father and each other. \*\* Are you suggesting that the Church is not relaxed and patient, is arrogant and with a self-inflated, and does not care about people being selfless and loving the Father and each other? You’ll have to back that up with more explanation. > [@](#): > > \*\* > So I don’t think he would set up his church anything like the Catholic Church. I personally don’t think he would want this extensive hierarchy of priests and cardinals. \*\* Why? What is wrong with it? The Church – by which I mean everyone from the pope to the most recently baptized – is immense and couldn’t possibly function without a hierarchy. > [@](#): > > \*\*I doubt he’d want the pope to concern himself with whether or not he was fallible. \*\* This statement suggests you don’t really understand papal infallibility. It is question about the infallibility of _doctrine_, not of this or that particular person. The Church believes that it is teaching Truth, not just what happens to be popular on Wednesday to be dropped on Monday. Try [url=http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal\_Infallibility.asp]here[/url for more. > [@](#): > > \*\* I think that Jesus would think that the money spent on elaborate and ornate robes for the priests would be better spent actually helping out the poor. \*\* This issue is not directly addressed in scripture that I know of, but there is one case where someone said to Jesus, “hey why didn’t you use that to help the poor?” That was when Mary (Martha’s sister) poured perfume over his feet and wiped his feet with her hair. Jesus approved of her action. Remember how God instructed the Hebrews to build the Ark and all that other ceremonial paraphenalia out of _gold_? The Church would maintain that these are quite proper instances of using material wealth to glorify God. So are the ceremonial robes, which are only for worship. Do you ever see a priest shopping at Kmart wearing those robes? Of course not. They wear black. For the same reason Amish wear black, because it is plain. > [@](#): > > \*\* I also think that Jesus would think it’s weird to see pictures and statues of himself being crucified . . . why not just a good portrait? \*\* This criticism is unfounded. An instance of selective memory. The crucifixion scenes are ones you find most striking and are the ones you remember. Make another visit to a Catholic church. \*\* > [@](#): > > I also can’t see Jesus getting all worked up about whether or not priests were married.\*\* Right. Which is why it is not a doctrinal issue. Priests can be married, just at present most of them _may_ not. I believe the formal adoption of this practice as more than voluntary had to do with Church reform to stamp out nepotism. All the arguments for and against have to do with practical issues about the role of priests and the functioning of the Church, though. \*\* > [@](#): > > Remember the story of Jesus going to the temple and getting all pissed because people were using it as a marketplace? I think that if Jesus were alive today, he would get all pissed at the Catholic Church because they missed the mark. \*\* And in what way is the Church like the moneychangers? > [@](#): > > \*\* > I think that Jesus’s church would involve everyone gathering and celebrating God without the formality and rules of the Catholic Church. \*\* Why? ---
**Author:** ![rhinostylee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bc79bd/32.png) [@rhinostylee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhinostylee)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-really-condone-the-catholic-church/184020/15 "2003-06-24T17:08:19Z")
> [@](#): > > And what “elaborate things” are you picturing used in the rituals of the Catholic Church? 1. Big statues 2. The pope’s hat 3. Robes of many varieties 4. The churches themselves 5. Steeples with big bells Those are the only ones I can immediately think of that are actually used in rituals. But I bet that Jesus would not be pleased with the $455 million that the Catholic Church has spent on sex scandal lawsuits. I think he’d be pretty pissed. You can but alot of stuff for poor people with a half-billion dollars. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_E\_Dec\_Esq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/48db29/32.png) [@Francis\_E\_Dec\_Esq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_E_Dec_Esq)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-really-condone-the-catholic-church/184020/16 "2003-06-24T17:11:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rhinostylee \* > \*\*But I bet that Jesus would not be pleased with the $455 million that the Catholic Church has spent on sex scandal lawsuits. I think he’d be pretty pissed. You can but alot of stuff for poor people with a half-billion dollars. \*\* Maybe, maybe not. But whether the Church does this or not has little to do with whether or not its normal functions correctly represent the Church established by God. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_E\_Dec\_Esq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/48db29/32.png) [@Francis\_E\_Dec\_Esq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_E_Dec_Esq)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-really-condone-the-catholic-church/184020/17 "2003-06-24T17:12:26Z")
Do you think I put enough nots in my last post? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-really-condone-the-catholic-church/184020/18 "2003-06-24T17:12:28Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. Steeples with big bells And I’ve got the biggest bells of all! ---
**Author:** ![netscape\_6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8c91f0/32.png) [@netscape\_6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/netscape_6)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-really-condone-the-catholic-church/184020/19 "2003-06-24T17:13:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rhinostylee \* > \*\*2) The pope’s hat > \*\* how does he wear that thing? isn’t he old and frial? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-really-condone-the-catholic-church/184020/20 "2003-06-24T17:14:48Z")
> [@](#): > > But I bet that Jesus would not be pleased with the $455 million that the Catholic Church has spent on sex scandal lawsuits. I think he’d be pretty pissed. You can but alot of stuff for poor people with a half-billion dollars. In case you haven’t noticed, the overwhelming majority of Catholic people are similarly pissed about both the scandal of tolerating pedophilia and the further scandal of cover-ups. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-jesus-really-condone-the-catholic-church/184020.md?page=2)