Poly, I knew you would understand if you gave it a little more thought. Promise me to return in kind when it’s needed?
Lib sends his greetings.
(Please email us when you have a chance. Our new computer is lacking your address and we’d like to get in touch with you.)
No. Some are better suited to the Pit, IMHO or even MPSIMS. However, we do tend to move a lot of them to GD since they tend to develop into debates or attract witnessing, and because of this we rarely move any religious debates out of GD. It’s sort of like a Roach Hotel for religious discussions, they go in and don’t come out.
Interesting thought. Its thought provoking.
YEA!!! It’s Catholic Bashing Time on the boards again!!!
To the OP, I’m sorry, I didn’t bother to go back and look up your handle.
I have a question for you? Would Jesus support the lifestyle of you or any other Christian on these boards(I am assuming you are Christian)? I mean, all the Christians on this board, obviously bought computers and have an internet connection? Shouldn’t they have used this money to go out and feed the hungry and clothe the naked?
So Jesus, doesn’t support any Christians(they use his name when they call themselves Christians, so just like the RCC, they claim to be affiliated with Him) because none of us are just like Him.
all fall short of thr glory of God, if anyone were just like Jesus it would contridict the Bible. Jesus’s support is not out of acts but out of love. i mean this for christians in general, not sure what the catholics believe though.
Just want to pop in and say that many Christian teachers, Catholic and otherwise, point up the very fact that Jesus’ trial, from beginning to end, was in violation of Jewish Law, which basically proves that the Sanhedrin was more interested in preserving their own position than they were in upholding Jewish Law.
Matthew, BTW, was the only Gospel that was not written in Greek. It was written in Aramaic- the language spoken by the majority of Palestinian Jews at that time.
BTW, being as how Jesus founded the Catholic Church…
So, Edlyn, what do you look at when you pray, especially when you pray in church? I understand Islam has taken the commandment about not making graven images so seriously that depicting human beings and/or living creatures in art is traditionally not done. Whether it’s a Christian in church, a Wiccan in a ritual, or a patient in a psychiatrist’s office, it helps many of us to have some sort of a focus object, something to direct one’s eyes to so that one’s mind will follow. At key points in my church’s service, I look at the cross above the alter conciously directing my words and my worship to God.
I suspect Christ would condone and condemn the Catholic Church as much and as little as he does the SBC, the Episcopalians, the Methodists, and the Mormons. In other words, I hope to hear a bit of “Here’s what you got right. Here’s what you got wrong. Here’s what they got right. Here’s what they got wrong. Get it now?” at the end of all things.
Fundamentalist Christianity puts a great deal of focus on repenting of one’s sins. A Catholic (or Episcopal) Church’s public Confession of Sins is a way of trying to get people to do just that – confess their sins to God and atone for them. I don’t know that I would do as good a job of it without that part of the service. I might beat myself up for my sins, but I don’t know that I’d always want to face God.
Forget it – it’s too muggy for this argument!!
Edlyn, give Libertarian my love, too. I’ve missed seeing so much of him around here.
CJ
(formerly cjhoworth)
Edlyn–the presence of the statues in the sanctuary, like the large crucifix that usually hangs over the altar, does not mean that they are objects to be worshipped. I think that most Catholics understand that these and other images are useful tools in focusing your attention on Christ and the saints. If the worshipper gets confused and starts treating the images as if they were the actual presence of the beings, instead of their representation, then the problem lies more with that individual than with the use of the images themselves. IMHO.
I do understand that you’re not saying that they’re required for the mass–that was rhinostylee’s dubious contention.
As for what you look at while praying…well, honestly, I’ve always looked upon the tabernacle. The Eucharist is enshrined there, and in keeping with the doctrine of transubstantation (more at that in a sec), Christ is really present there. So it seems most appropriate to be looking there. Sometimes I’ll look at the crucifix, but not usually while praying…more often when the priest’s homily drags on a bit too long 
But if the worshipper is able to separate in his mind the image from the actual being, then I see no reason to complain about him or her looking upon a crucifix while praying.
And about transubstantiation, this has always struck me as a particularly Catholic or Orthodox belief. I understand that most Protestants do not take Christ’s commandment at the Last Supper literally–they usually interpret it symbolically, or as a spiritual presence within the bread and wine (or grape juice, as some denominations use).
If you believe in transubstantiation, and your conscience is comfortable with the idea of receiving Christ literally, then I for one would see no problem with taking communion. This is just my personal opinion, though, not Church Law. You really are supposed to confess your sins, but I can’t say that I’ve always done that before receiving communion. I never did confess to my priest about that, um, that time that I masturbated.
As an Anglican, I’m really sticking my neck out in talking about Catholic doctrine, but I believe that this is slightly “off” as regards actual Catholic doctrine: the requirement for receiving Communion is that one be in a state of grace, not specifically that one have made an auricular confession before receiving. In practice, with auricular confession a part of church law, it would boil down to the same thing for a devout Catholic – but the distinction is important.
Good stuff on having a focus when in meditative prayer. Barb and I find the example of Francis of Assisi to be helpful in guiding our Christian walk; she’s a life-professed Tertiary in the Anglican-church Society of St. Francis, our Francisan order. We would no more “worship a statue of him” than we would a golden calf – but using his life as a guide for meditation on what we ought to be doing with our own lives is assuredly a help, and material (like the Giotto painting gobear recently linked to, which now constitutes our computer’s “wallpaper” (Thanks, 'bear!!), helps in maintaining focus on him, and beyond him to his Lord and ours.
As Polycarp noted, there is not requirement (or even official suggestion) in Catholic doctrine that would require a Catholic to confess before receiving the Eucharist. There is a bit of an historic trail of thought, there. At one point, Paul’s admonition that we not receive the Body and Blood unworthily evolved into a feeling that we should receive the Eucharist only on special occasions when we had made proper preparation, including contrition. At the beginning of the 20th century, Pope Pius X made a strong effort to reverse that notion, encouraging daily Communion. However, the old habits died hard and many people clung to the impression that they still had to at least confess before they went to Communion. The actual teaching is simply that one must not be in a state of serious sin when receiving the Eucharist and, since Vatican II, there has been a lot of emphasis on the point that the Eucharist, itself, is a Sacrament of forgiveness and reconciliation.
There is much that you are correct on.
The Catholic Church for the most part traces its roots back to the Church Christ left behind…they claim authority through the Apostle Peter, who headed the church in those days. But with the martyrdom of the apostle, the church as Christ intend it to run, and the Priesthood Authority he left behind, vanished over time…
In its place many rituals and doctrine of man, mingled with scripture began to form in its place….
On another note, extensive hierarchy is not necessary a bad thing…Christ himself delegated authority to others. It’s the way we learn…by doing. However, one must viewed the context of such authority as one of service…it is for the purpose of service that callings where extended and not to gain a measure of importance and power in the eyes of men.
Likewise, the Christ should be remembered how he is…living…not to take away from the purpose of his atoning sacrifice any…but he is living, and should be thought as such, as you clearly mention in your statement.
I realize that the Catholic Church is taken the brunt of your poignant view here, but likewise it would sadden the Savior to see how his simple doctrines are twisted to the point of being self serving and justifying what we wish to do.
However, both Christ and our Heavenly Father are Being of great order. The universe itself is one of order not chaos…His church therefore is one of order…and the rules and commandment thus given are for our own personal benefit…and are those of a Wise and Knowing Father giving rules of conduct to his children…Therefore the Church is to be one of order, with rules to follow… A place of sacred reverence where His spirit might be felt…this however should never distract from a live of serving your community and others.
The first thing jesus is gonna do when he comes back is burn all the churches and shoot hot fireballs up the popes ass.
No, I think he’ll start with that bigot living in Topeka, and work his way to Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell.
I usually close my eyes and direct my spirit to His. My prayers to Him is all that I am focused upon. Other times I can do the same while simply gazing ahead, or slightly off to one side or another, or down, but not focusing on any particular object. It is strictly a spiritual connection.
I know very little of Islam, but if that is so, I believe they have taken it out of context. The commandment states what and for what purpose. They stopped at what. IMO.
I think that when we are fully in His presence, we will know and understand everything. I saw that look upon my Grandfather’s face following his passing.
I was baptised and confirmed in the Episcopal church. The general confession was a part of the ritual service. I rarely got anything of importance from it. However, in my personal prayers where confession belonged to Him or to the individual to whom my confession belonged to, then asking for forgiveness, it is an entirely different experience. If I may add, there is no reason to fear or hesitate in facing God; He is always with you and He already knows.
I read your words to him and he said, “bless your heart”.
skopo
I enjoyed your response, particularly the humour sprinkled within it. 
I understand where you are coming from by stating it’s only decorative, a tool to be used and if recognized as more than that, that it is a personal problem. I would have agreed with you before I saw it in a different light. I’ll leave it at that since we all understand different things at different times in our spiritual walk.
Christ is really present everywhere and not just contained within the tabernacle in the Eucharist. In sharing my understanding with you or anyone else, I do not stand in judgement of you, personally.
You may be right about the Protestant view of transubstantiation, but I am not one who could confirm or deny that.
Isabelle
Wonderful post. Thank you!
We need an angel smilie.
tomndeb
I appreciated your clarification right up to the *** state of serious sin***. How does someone earn that distinction?
I am a former Catholic who no longer subscribes to a particular Christian faith. I’m just a born-again Christian.
Granted, every religion has its flakes, perverts, and sinful leaders and the Catholics are not alone. It hurts me as much to hear the news in the catholic community as it does with Jimmy Swaggart and others.
My BIGGEST complaint about the Catholic church is the pretense of praying to saints and the Blessed Virgin and the thought you can pray someone into heaven.
Sorry folks, but there’s only one way into Heaven and that’s the merciful grace of Jesus and in the acceptance of Him. I can’t pray you in, no amount of money can do it, your good works won’t do it, and there’s no mention of pergatory in the Bible.
Here’s a quote from the Evangelist Charles Spurgeon back in 1865 which may explain my reasoning:
"If we can say of any man, or of any set of people, “Ye are saved,” we shall have to preface it with the words “by grace.” There is no other present salvation except that which begins and ends with grace. As far as I know, I do not think that anyone in the wide world pretends to preach or to possess a present salvation, except those who believe salvation to be all of grace. No one in the Church of Rome claims to e now saved-- completely and eternally saved. Such a profession would be heretical. Some few Catholics may hope to enter heaven when they die, but the most of them have the miserable prospect of purgatory before their eyes. We see constant requests for prayers for departed souls, and this would not be if those souls were saved, and glorified with their Saviour. Masses for the repose of the soul indicate the incompleteness of the salvation Rome has to offer. Well may it be so, since Papal salvation is by works, and even if salvation by good works were possible, no man can ever be sure that he has performed enough of them to secure his salvation. '
Which would be fine if the Catholic Church preached Salvation by Works–which it does not.
The tension between the Sola Fide of much Protestant teaching and the Catholic position is the tension between (one interpretation of) Paul’s Letter to the Romans and the Letter of James. Without resurrecting that whole debate, I will simply note that the claim that the RCC preaches “Salvation by Works” is a strawman the corrupts the actual teaching. Disagree with the RCC position, if you choose, but have the knowledge and respect for that position to understand what the curch actually teaches, not how it is caricatured by those who oppose it.
Not to mention there’s no such thing as “Papal salvation”.
Well, “earn” is not the verb I would use.
This is the old mortal sin/venial sin distinction that the church began moving away from when it recognized that the discussions got into legalistic minutiae. A serious state of sin, (the old mortal sin), indicates a more or less complete separation from God. Most people would agree that a nine-year-old stealing a Happy Meal™ from a playmate would not separate one from God to the extent that torturing one’s own children to death for fun would. Between those examples, different people would place the point at which one had deliberately closed oneself off from God at different places. (This is my disclaimer that I am not going to try to draw the line, myself.)
However, the church recognizes that we all fail to live up to the example set for us by Jesus and that to the extent we fail, we sin. The grace we receive in partaking of the Eucharist is intended by God to (among other things) help up to overcome our sinful nature. Interference with our ability to hear God’s word and carry it out in our lives thatr have resulted from small actions of selfishness or fear can be healed through the Eucharist.
If we have sinned to the point that we have chosen to actively separate ourselves from God, then we need to do more to reconcile with Him than to partake of His Body and Blood–we need an overt and explicit act of recognizing our sin, expressing contrition for that sin, and seeking the healing of the Body of Christ.
An image that is not quite an analogy might be that if we stumble up against the side of a car and get out jacket dusty, we might be able to brush it off with our hands, but if we hurl ourselves into a mud puddle, we are going to need a lot more effort to get clean. (And I am focusing on the simple imagery; I will decline any attempt to extend the analogy.)
Following Paul’s call to not recieve the Eucharist unworthily, the church still teaches that we need to prepare ourselves to accept Him. If we find that we have deliberately placed a barrier between us, we need to take steps to remove that barrier before we go through the motions of accepting Him in His physical presence.