# Would John Lennon have forgiven Chapman? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 21, 2015, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-john-lennon-have-forgiven-chapman/723069 "2015-06-21T07:24:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![protoboard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/fbc32d/32.png) [@protoboard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/protoboard)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-john-lennon-have-forgiven-chapman/723069/1 "2015-06-21T07:24:14Z")
I always found it interesting how Paul McCartney and Yoko Ono talk this talk about peace and forgiveness, but seem intent on despising/wishing death and suffering upon their own enemy, Mark Chapman, until the end of time. Not that I blame them of course, he’s a scumbag and they have every right to hate them. I just think it’s hypocritical of them to talk and sing about peace and forgiveness when they personally want vengeance on their _own_ enemy. Do you think if John is somehow still alive in some Universe, or if he was, he would appreciate the vengeance in the heart of his best friend? If I was murdered, I would want my best friend to forgive the killer, but I’m only speaking for myself. Again I’m not blaming them, I’d be furious if my best friend was murdered. I just find it a tad hypocritical. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-john-lennon-have-forgiven-chapman/723069/2 "2015-06-21T07:41:07Z")
It may be hard to accept, but John Lennon was a bit of an asshole. I doubt he’d forgive the guy who shot him. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-john-lennon-have-forgiven-chapman/723069/3 "2015-06-21T07:43:04Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > It may be hard to accept, but John Lennon was a bit of an asshole. I doubt he’d forgive the guy who shot him. Yep, he could be. At times. Unlike the rest of us. It’s not hard to accept at all. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-john-lennon-have-forgiven-chapman/723069/4 "2015-06-21T07:47:58Z")
> [@protoboard](#): > > Do you think if John is somehow still alive in some Universe I think he’d want us to imagine that there’s no heaven, and no hell below us - above us only sky. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-john-lennon-have-forgiven-chapman/723069/5 "2015-06-21T08:05:58Z")
I’ve never heard that Yoko has wished death and suffering upon Chapman, only that she is against his ever being paroled and prefers he stays imprisoned for the rest of his life. So I see this as natural and not hypocritical at all. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-john-lennon-have-forgiven-chapman/723069/6 "2015-06-21T08:12:51Z")
Fuck no, I hope not. Would you forgive if you were shot in this fashion? Anyone who shoots me and I survive, the shooter better serve time then give me a portion of their measly paycheck for the rest of their lives. Chapman shooting Lennon wasn’t some kind of mistake or accident, it was a planned murder. Forgiving that is only possible if the plan falls through and the target survives. If someone survives a 1st degree murder attempt like, “Hey, tried to kill you 'cause I read about you and didn’t like you” is not forgivable, but it is reason to admit the psycho to a looney bin. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-john-lennon-have-forgiven-chapman/723069/7 "2015-06-21T08:24:16Z")
> [@protoboard](#): > > I just find it a tad hypocritical. That sort of hypocrisy would appear to form the foundation of Chapman’s desire to kill Lennon. Similarly, his desire to kill Lennon was rather hypocritical, given that he was a born again Christian who believed in the Ten Commandments (like “Though shalt not kill.”) So fundamentally, I think that all there is to be said is that many people are hypocrites, that being a good musician doesn’t make you a brilliant nor notable philosopher, and the ability to kill people does not make you a grand vanquisher. Any philosophy which requires you to be something impossible for humans, when you are in fact a human, is stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-john-lennon-have-forgiven-chapman/723069/8 "2015-06-21T14:08:22Z")
Where does Paul McCartney talk this talk about forgiveness exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-john-lennon-have-forgiven-chapman/723069/9 "2015-06-21T14:41:17Z")
I have to say I can only understand that kind of forgiveness in theoretical terms. It doesn’t have to be a John Lennon - every time a person is murdered, sometimes foully, and within days their family or parents or congregation or whatever comes out to the media and assures everyone that they bless and forgive and so forth… Really? I must be a real shit not to be able to find that in my playbook. A while back, a couple of kids were murdered in California, over nothing much, and the murderers finished their hamburgers. The father of one of the kids arrested one of the perps, not realizing at the time it was his son who had been killed. Years later, when they finally went to the gas chamber (actually, it was one of the times they were stayed at the last minute, but they were eventually executed), a reporter asked the cop/father what he would say to the killer if he had a moment for it. The guy looked in the camera and said, “Goodbye,” in the most chillingly level voice I can recall. Maybe raging hate is too much. But so is “forgiveness,” IMVHO. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-john-lennon-have-forgiven-chapman/723069/10 "2015-06-21T14:48:39Z")
> [@protoboard](#): > > I always found it interesting how Paul McCartney and Yoko Ono talk this talk about peace and forgiveness,\* but seem intent on despising/wishing death and suffering upon their own enemy, Mark Chapman, until the end of time.\* They do? I’ve never noticed. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-john-lennon-have-forgiven-chapman/723069/11 "2015-06-21T15:24:22Z")
Lennon was known to be acerbic and sometimes a jerk. Typical self entitled celebrity. 😉 He embraced peace and love for society. Doesn’t mean he turned into Mr Rogers overnight. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-john-lennon-have-forgiven-chapman/723069/12 "2015-06-21T15:27:14Z")
protoboard, could you link to some specific examples of McCartney and Ono talking about forgiveness and some specific examples of them wishing death and suffering upon Chapman? If you can’t, there’s nothing to discuss here about their supposed hypocrisy. Obviously there’s no way to know what Lennon would have said about Chapman, and Lennon wasn’t such a great guy in any case. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-john-lennon-have-forgiven-chapman/723069/13 "2015-06-21T15:33:04Z")
That’s some kind of bad luck for Chapman right there. One guy in the known universe who would forgive him, and that’s the guy he kills. What are the odds? ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Prize](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sir\_Prize](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Prize)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-john-lennon-have-forgiven-chapman/723069/14 "2015-06-21T15:42:13Z")
Promoting peace over war is a bit different then promoting forgiveness for murderers. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-john-lennon-have-forgiven-chapman/723069/15 "2015-06-21T16:07:22Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > I’ve never heard that Yoko has wished death and suffering upon Chapman, only that she is against his ever being paroled and prefers he stays imprisoned for the rest of his life. So I see this as natural and not hypocritical at all. > [@Maserschmidt](#): > > Where does Paul McCartney talk this talk about forgiveness exactly? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > They do? I’ve never noticed. > [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > protoboard, could you link to some specific examples of McCartney and Ono talking about forgiveness and some specific examples of them wishing death and suffering upon Chapman? If you can’t, there’s nothing to discuss here about their supposed hypocrisy. Obviously there’s no way to know what Lennon would have said about Chapman, and Lennon wasn’t such a great guy in any case. I would like to also chime in here and state that I’ve never read anything about Paul McCartney and Yoko Ono “despising/wishing death and suffering upon their own enemy.” Can we have links? ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-john-lennon-have-forgiven-chapman/723069/16 "2015-06-21T16:43:19Z")
The whole concept here is so insulting to Paul and Yoko (who I can’t stand). I’m fairly sure they never said such things. Lennon was a real hypocrite (as was Yoko) and a twisted bastard for the way he treated his (first ) family. Try reading the 1980 Playboy interview, thinking about Julian as you read. Insensitive isn’t even the word. He was a great artist but he never even forgave Cynthia or Julian for being there in his way. If the interviewer was taping he would probably forgive Chapman though, pretty sure. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-john-lennon-have-forgiven-chapman/723069/17 "2015-06-21T18:03:30Z")
He’d more likely go all scouser hooligan on his ass. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-john-lennon-have-forgiven-chapman/723069/18 "2015-06-21T19:34:42Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > He’d more likely go all scouser hooligan on his ass. Excellent comment!!! Yeah, Lennon could be an asshole. So could Bing Crosby and Richard Wagner. I don’t hold it against any of them; I’m glad they were here at all, so they could lay their gifts on us. Matter of fact, wouldn’t it be great if John could come back to life for just one day, so we could throw a big party for him? The highlight would be to watch him punch Chapman in the face, repeatedly. ---
**Author:** ![sparky\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/77aa72/32.png) [@sparky\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sparky_1)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-john-lennon-have-forgiven-chapman/723069/19 "2015-06-21T20:39:07Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Lennon was known to be acerbic and sometimes a jerk. Typical self entitled celebrity. 😉 He embraced peace and love for society. Doesn’t mean he turned into Mr Rogers overnight. Lennon’s art has done a lot of good. The fact that he was also an asshole doesn’t really matter, not should it. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-john-lennon-have-forgiven-chapman/723069/20 "2015-06-21T20:45:33Z")
> [@sparky\_1](#): > > Lennon’s art has done a lot of good. > > The fact that he was also an asshole doesn’t really matter, not should it. Unless you knew him. Hypocrisy is worth pointing out. He probably said that too [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-john-lennon-have-forgiven-chapman/723069.md?page=2)